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Deadline ????

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    Deadline ????

    And now ? when will we have our purchased products working? what is the deadline PMDG, everything has a deadline, when ???

    #2
    Dude, take a look at the "this is getting ridiculous" thread. I hate to break it to you but, despite what they say, there is little to no desire on the part of PMDG to make our legacy products work. They have our money and are not keen on spending theirs to fix old products when new products are being developed to make more money. And to be fair, that's their prerogative.

    I think as much as it may pain me, I'd rather have them flat out tell me it's a dead product than to keep me hanging on like Lloyd from Dumb and Dumber "so you're saying there's a chance."

    As far as setting deadlines? I've spent most of my adult life after the military as a commercial construction project manager and a management and logistics consultant on many projcts including DoD projects. In my professional opinion and as evidenced by the ambiguous "it will be done soon" or "eventually" we get from PMDG and their oft missed dates when they are set, goal setting and deadline keeping may be an area of opportunity.

    But to be fair to PMDG, this is pretty typical of software developers in general. They are very laissez-faire with deadlines, missed deadlines and perceived promises. This is due to a couple of factors. First and formost the products are very niche and there is little or no competition. Secondly, they are not producing a tangible product that can "owned". You are basically paying for their ideas or intellectual property. This leaves the consumer with no recourse in eventualities exactly like this. Perhaps some consumer protection legislation is in order, I don't know.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again; PMDG is the best at what they do. They make AMAZING products, they are very responsive to customers with issues on products that are currently in their orbit of interest and priority, and the attention to detail is top notch. As a point of constructive criticism though, I do believe there are some opportunities in the setting of realistic goals and deadlines for themselves. They seem to overwhelm themselves and in the end we get the old "it will get done we just don't know when."

    I will continue to buy products from PMDG, I am very impressed with what they do, I enjoy their products very much. That doesn't mean though that it isn't fair of me to be critical of situations such as this legacy product ordeal. I think it is being really badly handled.

    To conclude, the chances that you will be using your legacy products in the near future are none and using them ever again are slim. I've made peace with it and will cry myself to sleep thinking about my MD-11. Again, PMDG is legally doing nothing wrong, its the nature of the beast and we have to live with it.
    Travis D. Perkins
    i7 9700k 5.0ghz, RTX2080, 32GB 40000mhz, AOC Agon 35"

    Comment


      #3
      Probably never. PMDG just keeps giving us the run around in hopes we just shut up, comply and buy their newer products. This is what happens when you don't have competition in the market place.

      Max Rojas

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by TBone View Post
        ...........But to be fair to PMDG, this is pretty typical of software developers in general. They are very laissez-faire with deadlines, missed deadlines and perceived promises. This is due to a couple of factors. First and formost the products are very niche and there is little or no competition. Secondly, they are not producing a tangible product that can "owned". You are basically paying for their ideas or intellectual property. This leaves the consumer with no recourse in eventualities exactly like this. Perhaps some consumer protection legislation is in order, I don't know.

        I've said it before and I'll say it again; PMDG is the best at what they do. They make AMAZING products, they are very responsive to customers with issues on products that are currently in their orbit of interest and priority, and the attention to detail is top notch. As a point of constructive criticism though, I do believe there are some opportunities in the setting of realistic goals and deadlines for themselves. They seem to overwhelm themselves and in the end we get the old "it will get done we just don't know when."

        I will continue to buy products from PMDG, I am very impressed with what they do, I enjoy their products very much. That doesn't mean though that it isn't fair of me to be critical of situations such as this legacy product ordeal (if) I think it is being really badly handled.......
        I share these sentiments, Travis. Patience is a virtue!

        I believe RSR has said he will fix things so that those of us who have previously registered PMDG's Legacy products will be able to use these aircaft again, but all 32Bit and technical support for them will be ending sometime soon. I appreciate unknown delays like this can be very frustrating for all concerned; but I am content to wait patiently for that day to come given the fact that I also have some more up-to-date PMDG aircraft versions for P3Dv4 (yes, I know, I'm only one of many sad FS95, FS2000, FS2004, FSX, FSX-SE etc simulator geeks still out there! ‚Äč ). Besides, PMDG doesn't have the vast resources behind it that Microsoft or Boeing have - and just think how long it is taking Boeing to fix their MCAS problems!

        Nothing frustrates me more though than some of Microsoft's own updates when I end up discovering some new bug has been introduced, or a hardware driver that doesn't work any more. Some of their OS updates in the past have resulted in a piece of expensive hardware becoming totally obsolete, simply because there is no compatible driver available. Changes in the computer industry are happening all of the time and sometimes we are left with no choice but to move with the times too. This is called progress, so if we want to enjoy all of the latest bells and whistles then I believe we should stop complaining and bite the bullet with either an upgrade or replacement of our old PC hardware and/or software.
        Michael Codd

        Comment


          #5
          Gents,

          You are correct that there is no deadline for us to make these work. It is not an insignificant challenge to keep a twenty year old authorization process running when the techonlogy that supported it has been deprecated. The last product released with this technology was thirteen years ago, and the source code for those products no longer exists- which places a significant technological limitation on the engineers designated to gin up a fix.

          It is not at all unlike having an RS232 printer while the world has moved on to USB.

          Technology changes.

          Engineering time is extremely expensive- and to date we have spent far more on this than most companies would. We continue to look for solutions, and we have even involved outside firms in trying to find one- but to date none of them have worked.



          Robert S. Randazzo
          PMDG Simulations
          http://www.pmdg.com


          Comment


          • Michael Codd
            Michael Codd commented
            Editing a comment
            You must be a mind reader. You don't want to buy an old ENCAD A0 plotter by any chance do you? :-)

          #6
          Hey Michael, I am aware of the technobabble RSR laid on us to explian why this issue still exists. Its been since at least August of last year. If you read between the lines though when he says things like "we are working in the background" I think it becomes clear that we are being placated and there is little interest in a resolution. Making the legacy products compatible with their new authentication protocol is not the only way to make this happen. The products still function fine when installed.

          Additionally in an exchange with Markis, he mentioned copyrights as a hurdle for pursuing other solutions. I ran this by a colleague of mine that litigates intellectual property cases and he said that its a bit of BS.

          I don't expect a resolution and like I said I'm fine with it. I just take issue with the handling of the situation.

          I'm declaring shenanigans!!!!
          Travis D. Perkins
          i7 9700k 5.0ghz, RTX2080, 32GB 40000mhz, AOC Agon 35"

          Comment


            #7
            Of course it's BS. This will forever be a black eye on PMDG.

            Max Rojas

            Comment


              #8
              Originally posted by rsrandazzo View Post
              Gents,

              You are correct that there is no deadline for us to make these work. It is not an insignificant challenge to keep a twenty year old authorization process running when the techonlogy that supported it has been deprecated. The last product released with this technology was thirteen years ago, and the source code for those products no longer exists- which places a significant technological limitation on the engineers designated to gin up a fix.

              It is not at all unlike having an RS232 printer while the world has moved on to USB.

              Technology changes.

              Engineering time is extremely expensive- and to date we have spent far more on this than most companies would. We continue to look for solutions, and we have even involved outside firms in trying to find one- but to date none of them have worked.


              I'm not clear on why the time and expense is something that has to happen. By your own admission, the legacy users are one half of one percent. Certainly, if they submitted their origional serial numbers it would be easy to verify ownership manually from your database. Then, issue a standalone installer that doesn't require authorization. These products have already been paid for and certainly any licensing fees covered by the origional purchase. And if one of these escapes into the wild, it doesn't result in lost revenue because you no longer sell them.
              Travis D. Perkins
              i7 9700k 5.0ghz, RTX2080, 32GB 40000mhz, AOC Agon 35"

              Comment


                #9
                Originally posted by TBone View Post

                I'm not clear on why the time and expense is something that has to happen. By your own admission, the legacy users are one half of one percent. Certainly, if they submitted their origional serial numbers it would be easy to verify ownership manually from your database. Then, issue a standalone installer that doesn't require authorization. These products have already been paid for and certainly any licensing fees covered by the origional purchase. And if one of these escapes into the wild, it doesn't result in lost revenue because you no longer sell them.
                I had written it before, there are copyright agreements that does no allow us to do that
                Chris Makris (Olympic260)
                PMDG Technical Support
                http://www.pmdg.com

                Comment


                  #10
                  Originally posted by skymaster View Post
                  Of course it's BS. This will forever be a black eye on PMDG.

                  Max Rojas
                  Dude, relax. Cogent arguments are helpful but vitriol just reflects badly on you and rarely helps your cause.
                  Travis D. Perkins
                  i7 9700k 5.0ghz, RTX2080, 32GB 40000mhz, AOC Agon 35"

                  Comment


                    #11
                    Originally posted by cmakris View Post

                    I had written it before, there are copyright agreements that does no allow us to do that
                    I do recall that. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Copyright licensing agreements are negotiable and given the circumstances I felt it might be a less time and money consuming avenue of approach. Sometimes outside eyes can see the solution everyone is missing. Just trying to help.

                    Also, I thought I'd try the ol' "mom said no so I'll go ask dad" technique.
                    Last edited by TBone; 12Feb2020, 19:21.
                    Travis D. Perkins
                    i7 9700k 5.0ghz, RTX2080, 32GB 40000mhz, AOC Agon 35"

                    Comment


                      #12
                      Originally posted by rsrandazzo View Post
                      Gents,

                      You are correct that there is no deadline for us to make these work. It is not an insignificant challenge to keep a twenty year old authorization process running when the techonlogy that supported it has been deprecated. The last product released with this technology was thirteen years ago, and the source code for those products no longer exists- which places a significant technological limitation on the engineers designated to gin up a fix.

                      It is not at all unlike having an RS232 printer while the world has moved on to USB.

                      Technology changes.

                      Engineering time is extremely expensive- and to date we have spent far more on this than most companies would. We continue to look for solutions, and we have even involved outside firms in trying to find one- but to date none of them have worked.





                      Dear Mr. Randazzo,

                      I do not agree. The problem is related to the activation process only.
                      It has nothing to do with "Technology changes".
                      As I already said: Even a boxed version via mail would be appreciated. That should not be a problem in 2020.
                      Christoph Furgol

                      Comment


                        #13
                        Originally posted by TBone View Post

                        Dude, relax. Cogent arguments are helpful but vitriol just reflects badly on you and rarely helps your cause.
                        Sorry, just frustrated. Haven't heard anything via support since August and I'm just tired of getting crapped on here.

                        Max Rojas
                        Last edited by skymaster; 12Feb2020, 20:03.

                        Comment


                          #14
                          Originally posted by skymaster View Post

                          Sorry, just frustrated. Haven't heard anything via support since August and I'm just tired of getting crapped on here.

                          Max Rojas
                          I feel ya bro. I don't know if you paid any attention to the copyright exchanges I've had with Chris Markis or not. My gut tells me the if the copyrights were somehow not a speed bump we would all still be here having this same conversation.

                          I learned a long time ago rhat it is not worth my energy to get angry over things I can't control but rather to dwell on life's blessings.

                          Like letting go of a beloved pet, its time to say goodbye to our friend the MD-11.

                          I'm still declaring shenanigans!
                          Travis D. Perkins
                          i7 9700k 5.0ghz, RTX2080, 32GB 40000mhz, AOC Agon 35"

                          Comment


                            #15
                            Rotate-sims is working on one for Xplane "MD-11"
                            Ro Faulk

                            Monitor ROG PG27U 4K 144HZ
                            i9,9900K 5.0GHZ, 64GB RAM, SSD 2TB M.2 OS drive, Dual EVGA 2080Ti NVLinked GPU's, MSI, GODlike Z390 MB.

                            Comment


                              #16
                              Originally posted by TBone View Post
                              ....I learned a long time ago rhat it is not worth my energy to get angry over things I can't control but rather to dwell on life's blessings.
                              Like letting go of a beloved pet, its time to say goodbye to our friend the MD-11.......!
                              Amen to that, Travis! Unless you are a vegetarian perhaps you will agree with me that one of life's blessing is an American TBone steak with a baked Idaho; all washed down with a Sam Adams or two! LOL
                              Michael Codd

                              Comment


                                #17
                                Originally posted by cmakris View Post

                                I had written it before, there are copyright agreements that does no allow us to do that
                                Hi Chris,
                                I was going to kinda let this whole thing die along with the legacy products but curiosity got the best of me. You stated that the copyrights were an issue but no one has said that barring those, a stand alone installer or an authentication free solution wouldn't work. Which begs the question;
                                If PMDG were the only copyright holder or hypothetically there were no copyright restrictions, would one of those solutions have been implemented months ago?

                                Travis D. Perkins
                                i7 9700k 5.0ghz, RTX2080, 32GB 40000mhz, AOC Agon 35"

                                Comment


                                  #18
                                  Originally posted by TBone View Post

                                  Hi Chris,
                                  I was going to kinda let this whole thing die along with the legacy products but curiosity got the best of me. You stated that the copyrights were an issue but no one has said that barring those, a stand alone installer or an authentication free solution wouldn't work. Which begs the question;
                                  If PMDG were the only copyright holder or hypothetically there were no copyright restrictions, would one of those solutions have been implemented months ago?
                                  Hypothetically speaking yea, one of these solutions could have been considered
                                  Chris Makris (Olympic260)
                                  PMDG Technical Support
                                  http://www.pmdg.com

                                  Comment


                                    #19
                                    Originally posted by cmakris View Post

                                    Hypothetically speaking yea, one of these solutions could have been considered
                                    Then why haven't you???

                                    Max Rojas

                                    Comment


                                      #20
                                      Originally posted by skymaster View Post

                                      Then why haven't you???

                                      Max Rojas
                                      Did you read what I have written. Hypothetically. There are copyrights that does not allow us doing this. Robert gave you an answer on the current state.
                                      Chris Makris (Olympic260)
                                      PMDG Technical Support
                                      http://www.pmdg.com

                                      Comment


                                        #21
                                        Originally posted by cmakris View Post

                                        Hypothetically speaking yea, one of these solutions could have been considered
                                        Thanks Chris, I understand what you are saying. Certainly you must understand the frustration some are feeling but I think helping folks understand your hurdles can put some minds at ease. Knowing that my above mentioned possibilities are out of the question in large part because of licensing obligations to others is a step in the right direction.

                                        Those of us eagerly waiting to use the products we paid for can assume then that there was at least some effort in this direction and PMDG made a genuine effort to reach out to the copyright holders for a little help with this quandary. Would that be safe to say?

                                        Again, this is frustrating for many folks and your transparency is certainly appreciated!
                                        Last edited by TBone; 13Feb2020, 19:50.
                                        Travis D. Perkins
                                        i7 9700k 5.0ghz, RTX2080, 32GB 40000mhz, AOC Agon 35"

                                        Comment


                                          #22
                                          Originally posted by cmakris View Post

                                          Did you read what I have written. Hypothetically. There are copyrights that does not allow us doing this. Robert gave you an answer on the current state.
                                          Yo, chill out bruh. Was just asking. No need to get defensive.

                                          Max Rojas

                                          Comment


                                            #23
                                            Originally posted by skymaster View Post

                                            Yo, chill out bruh. Was just asking. No need to get defensive.

                                            Max Rojas
                                            "You're killin' me Smalls"*.
                                            I think we have a good conversation going here, let's be careful to not get the thread locked.

                                            *The Sandlot
                                            Travis D. Perkins
                                            i7 9700k 5.0ghz, RTX2080, 32GB 40000mhz, AOC Agon 35"

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