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This is getting ridiculous...

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    This is getting ridiculous...

    I am annoyed that I have hundreds of dollars worth of PMDG addon aircraft for FS9 and FSX and am unable to install any of them. I understand that these products are for the most part, end-of-life, which I understand to mean that SUPPORT has ended, but I'm not asking for PMDG to support this software. PMDG has arbitrarily rendered all their legacy installers useless by updating their validation systems, apparently without even testing to ensure that legacy products would still be able to be validated. Whether unintentional or not, they have effectively disabled software that is owned by me and are dragging their feet in making the necessary changes to make these legacy products installable again.That's not the way to develop a loyal customer base. I can say this for sure: if PMDG is planning to develop software for the new Microsoft simulator, I won't be buying any of it. I'm done with them.

    Steve Silvi
    Last edited by ssilvi; 14Oct2019, 19:25. Reason: Failed to sign the post with my real name.

    #2
    Did you submit a support ticket?
    Captain Kevin

    Kevin Yang

    Comment


      #3
      Sure did...over six weeks ago. Was told that they were expecting the issue to be resolved within 10 days or so but would not give a firm ETA.

      Steve Silvi
      Last edited by ssilvi; 14Oct2019, 19:25. Reason: Failed to sign post with real name

      Comment


        #4
        nameless,

        Would love to have a conversation with you about it- but as I'm sure you know as a long-standing PMDG customer, you have to sign your posts in this forum.

        **normally** we cleanse the forum of any unsigned posts without comment. I'm going to give you a chance to sign yours so I can actually answer without having to remove the thread.

        Robert S. Randazzo
        PMDG Simulations
        http://www.pmdg.com


        Comment


        • Bluestar
          Bluestar commented
          Editing a comment
          I was starting to wonder if you still worked here. 🤣

          But then again I'm old and easily confused.

        • ssilvi
          ssilvi commented
          Editing a comment
          My apologies, Robert. I have signed my previous posts as requested.

          Steve Silvi

        #5
        I second this. I was told 10 days back in August and after several attempts with support they just tell me 10 days as well as they are working on it. I don't buy it. This sort of thing doesn't take nearly 3 months to figure out. I think what is really going on is PMDG is doing this on purpose as a way to force legacy users to buy their new stuff. Welp, if that is the case it is a big heck no from me. I also don't plan on buying anymore PMDG products in the future either. This just makes them look really bad as a company. Why should I invest hard earned money into a product knowing that I won't be able to use it one day?

        And this isn't meant to disparage PMDG. But it is just a shame they are dragging some of us in the mud with this.

        Will Barker
        Last edited by iamthecaptainnow; 14Oct2019, 18:46.
        Will Barker

        Comment


          #6
          Steve,

          Thanks for jumping back in with the sig. We appreciate it. Normally I nuke unsigned posts with impunity- but in your case I thought you deserved an answer so i violated our policy to give that a chance to happen. Don't tell Kyle or Chris because I am constantly nagging at them for not nuking unsigned posts.

          So- in the background we are working toward a solution to get our legacy products back online. When we moved to our new ecommerce solution, we went from a self-hosted shopping cart to a SAS solution that is cloud based and (it turns out) didn't play well with our legacy activation system. It appeared okay in initial testing, but then proved not to be stable and put us back-to-the-drawing board after we made the cut-over in August.

          The issue is really quite complex and is going to involve a complete re-code of the installers in which our legacy products are packaged. Normally that wouldn't take long, but in order to implement the solution that goes with it, we need to use some newer microsoft redistributables that didn't exist back when those installers were written and those redists aren't compatible with the Installshield version in which those installers were written.

          So the next step is that we need to take the legacy installer code, bring it forward and update it to the latest version that is compatible with Installshield and then recompile the installers using the newer MS redistributables. Sounds simple, but it will require 20-30hours of developer time for each product line, totaling about 150hrs of developer time. Thus far I am about 40hrs into just research on the problem- and aside from having a plan, I haven't gotten much closer to having an actual working solution in hand.

          This is life in software sometimes- and I am hesitant to make any guesses as to how long/how easy/how hard this is going to be until I get the first one working.

          Bottom line: We will. We always do. Like everything it is a matter of cleaving free some developer time to get the process completed- and then roll it out to you guys.

          Sorry for the delay...



          Will,

          Whoa buddy... Easy with the paranoid hyperbole!

          Whenever something goes on in this community there are always a bunch of folks eager to dive in and heap cow excrement on PMDG as if we are some big, ugly corporation intent of doing evil and harm in every corner. If you actually pay attention to reality rather than the fever dreams of internet trolls, you will find quite to the contrary- we put a tremendous amount of time and energy into supporting our products and our customers even when our legal obligation to do so has expired.

          You are proposing that PMDG has somehow cooked up some plot for the "Planned Obsolescence" of our legacy products. That really couldn't be further from the truth and frankly such a thing violates everything we believe in with respect to our products and customers. Our objective since 1997 has been to sell you a high quality product and to support that product through and beyond it's useful sales-life. We have maintained support for legacy activation process for more than a decade since it was obviated by the move to our modern activation process. Simply because we removed an old product form sale doesn't mean we want to force anyone to upgrade- we would much prefer that you upgrade because you think our product quality is excellent and our support is top notch as well.

          Need an example?: Legacy product use right now is about 0.5% of our total product use. That is one half of one percent. To put it differently, 99.5% of our customers are on more recent products... Yet we are preparing to spends about $5,000 in developer time to keep that 0.05% in play **because we think they deserve that for being a PMDG customer**

          So please, Will- don't accuse us of dragging anyone in the mud. We are the ones trying to solve the problem and you are heaping the mud on our heads...



          Robert S. Randazzo
          PMDG Simulations
          http://www.pmdg.com


          Comment


            #7
            Originally posted by iamthecaptainnow View Post
            I second this. I was told 10 days back in August and after several attempts with support they just tell me 10 days as well as they are working on it. I don't buy it. This sort of thing doesn't take nearly 3 months to figure out. I think what is really going on is PMDG is doing this on purpose as a way to force legacy users to buy their new stuff. Welp, if that is the case it is a big heck no from me. I also don't plan on buying anymore PMDG products in the future either. This just makes them look really bad as a company. Why should I invest hard earned money into a product knowing that I won't be able to use it one day?

            And this isn't meant to disparage PMDG. But it is just a shame they are dragging some of us in the mud with this.

            Will Barker
            My bad. It just gets frustrating. I understand you guys likely have lots on your plate at the moment. I do apologize, no hard feelings. Appreciate your help!

            -Will Barker
            Last edited by iamthecaptainnow; 15Oct2019, 08:04.
            Will Barker

            Comment


              #8
              Originally posted by rsrandazzo View Post
              Steve,

              So- in the background we are working toward a solution to get our legacy products back online. When we moved to our new ecommerce solution, we went from a self-hosted shopping cart to a SAS solution that is cloud based and (it turns out) didn't play well with our legacy activation system. It appeared okay in initial testing, but then proved not to be stable and put us back-to-the-drawing board after we made the cut-over in August.

              The issue is really quite complex and is going to involve a complete re-code of the installers in which our legacy products are packaged. Normally that wouldn't take long, but in order to implement the solution that goes with it, we need to use some newer microsoft redistributables that didn't exist back when those installers were written and those redists aren't compatible with the Installshield version in which those installers were written.

              So the next step is that we need to take the legacy installer code, bring it forward and update it to the latest version that is compatible with Installshield and then recompile the installers using the newer MS redistributables. Sounds simple, but it will require 20-30hours of developer time for each product line, totaling about 150hrs of developer time. Thus far I am about 40hrs into just research on the problem- and aside from having a plan, I haven't gotten much closer to having an actual working solution in hand.

              This is life in software sometimes- and I am hesitant to make any guesses as to how long/how easy/how hard this is going to be until I get the first one working.

              Bottom line: We will. We always do. Like everything it is a matter of cleaving free some developer time to get the process completed- and then roll it out to you guys.

              Sorry for the delay...

              OK Robert. I didn't know that the legacy installers were initially compatible with the new validation system. And as the error message implied a (simple?) security certificate issue, it seemed like a fix could be implemented quickly. Also, I assumed that a much higher percentage of users were still flying legacy PMDG aircraft and were thus affected by this issue. Am I the only user who still occasionally flies in FS9 and FSX.lol Thanks for the more detailed explanation for why it's taking so long to make those old installers compatible. I guess there's no alternative but to wait this out.

              Steve Silvi

              Comment


                #9
                Originally posted by ssilvi View Post


                OK Robert. I didn't know that the legacy installers were initially compatible with the new validation system. And as the error message implied a (simple?) security certificate issue, it seemed like a fix could be implemented quickly. Also, I assumed that a much higher percentage of users were still flying legacy PMDG aircraft and were thus affected by this issue. Am I the only user who still occasionally flies in FS9 and FSX.lol Thanks for the more detailed explanation for why it's taking so long to make those old installers compatible. I guess there's no alternative but to wait this out.

                Steve Silvi
                I'm still on FS9. Mostly because that is where literally ALL my add ons are. I have P3D but I just haven't had the time or money to buy newer ad ons.
                Will Barker

                Comment


                  #10
                  What actually sometimes looks like a easy fix is actually more complex than it looks.
                  Danny Z.Cebis

                  Comment


                    #11
                    Hello everyone, I too have the same problem, I opened a ticket for non-validation, since August I'm waiting for news. Why doesn't PMDG send an installation CD to customers who have a new installation problem?

                    Graziano Galvanetto
                    Graziano Galvanetto

                    Comment


                      #12
                      Not that simple.
                      Kyle Rodgers
                      PMDG Simulations

                      Comment


                        #13
                        Originally posted by graziano56 View Post
                        Hello everyone, I too have the same problem, I opened a ticket for non-validation, since August I'm waiting for news. Why doesn't PMDG send an installation CD to customers who have a new installation problem?

                        Graziano Galvanetto
                        I'm really not sure we will see anything happen before the end of the year sadly. I know PMDG says they are working on this, but I'm having a difficult time believing this. They were rather confident back in August that it would just take 10 days, but almost 3 months later no joy. It's just been quite frustrating. But whatever I guess. They are the experts and not us.

                        Will Barker
                        Last edited by iamthecaptainnow; 22Oct2019, 16:27.
                        Will Barker

                        Comment


                          #14
                          Gents,

                          If this were an "easy" fix- we would have done it immediately. It is a very complex fix, and quite costly. Read my post above if you have questions on that.

                          And while I recognize that a few of you are frustrated- please do understand that we haven't done what most developers do when a problem effects less than one half of one percent of their users... We haven't washed our hands of the issue- it just takes time.

                          Robert S. Randazzo
                          PMDG Simulations
                          http://www.pmdg.com


                          Comment


                            #15
                            Originally posted by iamthecaptainnow View Post
                            I'm really not sure we will see anything happen before the end of the year sadly. I know PMDG says they are working on this, but I'm having a difficult time believing this. They were rather confident back in August that it would just take 10 days, but almost 3 months later no joy. It's just been quite frustrating. But whatever I guess. They are the experts and not us.
                            Will Barker
                            Frankly, I am amazed PMDG still want to support all of their old DVD products given the fact that the likes of Microsoft no longer support XP and will soon be stopping support for Win7 (both of which are still very good operating systems in my opinion). Even FSX is considered to be an old piece of software that hasn't been supported by Microsoft for years.

                            Every computer product has a limited life which can sometimes be measured in months and quite often as an end user we have to bite the bullet and decide if it is worth the expense as well as the time and effort to move on and replace our outdated hardware and software with something new. I still have FSX and my original DVD version of the QOTS that I bought when it first came out, but I hardly ever use them these days. With some reluctantce I decided it was time to save up and upgrade to P3Dv4 when it was first released and I haven't regretted making that decision ever since, because using this 64 bit program with PMDG's current aircraft, along with other aircraft and scenery addons I have, has made the world of difference to the enjoyment I get out of my flight simming. All of my frustrations with FSX and CTD's vanished overnight and the aircraft and scenery are so much better.

                            Gents, if you are still frustrated at having to wait for a fix for your old PMDG aircraft etc then the choice is of course always yours to do something about it. Has all the time and effort to upgrade my Flight Sim and addons to a 64 bit system been worth it for me? Yes, definitely, although I daren't tell the wife about it for obvious reasons!
                            Michael Codd

                            Comment


                              #16
                              How much did it cost to give an auto-installer with a serial sent to the customer's email? They would have already solved for 2 months. Would PMDG have been able to produce a serial auto-installer?

                              Graziano Galvanetto

                              Comment


                                #17
                                Originally posted by rsrandazzo View Post
                                Frankly, I am amazed PMDG still want to support all of their old DVD products given the fact that the likes of Microsoft no longer support XP and will soon be stopping support for Win7 (both of which are still very good operating systems in my opinion). Even FSX is considered to be an old piece of software that hasn't been supported by Microsoft for years.

                                Every computer product has a limited life which can sometimes be measured in months and quite often as an end user we have to bite the bullet and decide if it is worth the expense as well as the time and effort to move on and replace our outdated hardware and software with something new. I still have FSX and my original DVD version of the QOTS that I bought when it first came out, but I hardly ever use them these days. With some reluctantce I decided it was time to save up and upgrade to P3Dv4 when it was first released and I haven't regretted making that decision ever since, because using this 64 bit program with PMDG's current aircraft, along with other aircraft and scenery addons I have, has made the world of difference to the enjoyment I get out of my flight simming. All of my frustrations with FSX and CTD's vanished overnight and the aircraft and scenery are so much better.

                                Gents, if you are still frustrated at having to wait for a fix for your old PMDG aircraft etc then the choice is of course always yours to do something about it. Has all the time and effort to upgrade my Flight Sim and addons to a 64 bit system been worth it for me? Yes, definitely, although I daren't tell the wife about it for obvious reasons!
                                This has nothing to do with not having the proper system for the newer products. As I am running on a high end gaming PC. Not all of us can just upgrade to the newer sim overnight along with acquiring expensive add ons.
                                Last edited by iamthecaptainnow; 23Oct2019, 16:20.
                                Will Barker

                                Comment


                                  #18
                                  Will,

                                  I think you have misjudged what I said, because I don't get upset or on a high horse. I was simply stating a fact that PC's and software soon go out of date and, as individuals, we have a personal choice whether to upgrade them or not.

                                  I don't disagree with you at all wanting software you have bought to work for as long as you own it, but at what future cost to the developer if you are the only one or in a very small minority? Virtually every product we buy these days has a limited warranty or shelf life of some sort, including I believe a time period of approximately 10 years allowed for legacy support from certain manufacturers e.g. Original car parts.

                                  Like you, I would really love to get all of the old and expensive hardware and software I have bought over the years to work with Microsoft's current Windows 10 operating system, but sadly most of them won't. I was probably just as frustrated as you obviously are when I discovered the latest versions of Coreldraw won't read or convert any of my earlier version's data files. Even worse, my perfectly good printer wouldn't print them out in any event because the drivers no longer work with Windows 10. There is absolutely nothing I can do to fix them, but at least PMDG have said they are trying their best to sort out your problem, you lucky chap!

                                  Maybe we shouldn't get frustrated with software companies like PMDG for having to go to greater lengths these days in order to protect their intellectual property and instead put the blame where it belongs - on the hackers for making complicated software protection necessary in the first place?
                                  Michael Codd

                                  Comment


                                    #19
                                    Originally posted by Michael Codd View Post
                                    Will,

                                    I think you have misjudged what I said, because I don't get upset or on a high horse. I was simply stating a fact that PC's and software soon go out of date and, as individuals, we have a personal choice whether to upgrade them or not.

                                    I don't disagree with you at all wanting software you have bought to work for as long as you own it, but at what future cost to the developer if you are the only one or in a very small minority? Virtually every product we buy these days has a limited warranty or shelf life of some sort, including I believe a time period of approximately 10 years allowed for legacy support from certain manufacturers e.g. Original car parts.

                                    Like you, I would really love to get all of the old and expensive hardware and software I have bought over the years to work with Microsoft's current Windows 10 operating system, but sadly most of them won't. I was probably just as frustrated as you obviously are when I discovered the latest versions of Coreldraw won't read or convert any of my earlier version's data files. Even worse, my perfectly good printer wouldn't print them out in any event because the drivers no longer work with Windows 10. There is absolutely nothing I can do to fix them, but at least PMDG have said they are trying their best to sort out your problem, you lucky chap!

                                    Maybe we shouldn't get frustrated with software companies like PMDG for having to go to greater lengths these days in order to protect their intellectual property and instead put the blame where it belongs - on the hackers for making complicated software protection necessary in the first place?
                                    You're right I guess. Sorry, I don't mean to be rude just a little frustrated. Maybe I will just upgrade.
                                    Will Barker

                                    Comment


                                      #20
                                      I agree finding developer time to solve these problems can be time-consuming. But by the same token I have several Captain Sim products dating back to at least 10 years ago that don't seem to suffer from this condition. Some of these items were designed around Windows 7.


                                      Eric Parker

                                      Comment


                                        #21
                                        Originally posted by elparker View Post
                                        I agree finding developer time to solve these problems can be time-consuming. But by the same token I have several Captain Sim products dating back to at least 10 years ago that don't seem to suffer from this condition. Some of these items were designed around Windows 7.


                                        Eric Parker
                                        A bit of an apples / oranges comparison here...

                                        The NGX is about that old, and it still works. That’s partially the reason we switched off of the old method to the method that the NGX kicked off.

                                        A decade is quite a lot to expect out of software, honestly, but we are still going to expend the effort for the very small minority affected by this.
                                        Kyle Rodgers
                                        PMDG Simulations

                                        Comment


                                          #22


                                          It has been nearly 3 months since we were told “10 days”. However, the straw has broken the Camel's back. My patience run out. Thank you PMDG for the wonderful products that have brought me such joy over the years. However, while I do have plans of purchasing the new MSFS next year, PMDG sadly is not part of those plans. I never plan on purchasing a PMDG product again. I really hope other customers do not have to go through this in the future.

                                          Adios PMDG
                                          Will Barker

                                          Comment


                                            #23

                                            I don't understand what you mean, the matter is simple Planes for fsx, fs9 will work fine. PMDG does not force you to install P3dv4 or FSX2020 if you do not want a new simulator you fly without obstacles on the old FS9. But if you buy a new simulator you have to buy a new plane integrated into the new system. Someone works long and requires payment then is normal, do you take money for one month of your work and will you work for free for the rest of the year?

                                            Comment


                                              #24
                                              Originally posted by iamthecaptainnow View Post
                                              ......Thank you PMDG for the wonderful products that have brought me such joy over the years........
                                              In that case, Will, I don't understand why you are in effect cutting off your nose to spite your face.

                                              Whether we like it or not, PMDG are under no legal obligation to fix their legacy products, even though RSR has apologised and said they will. There is legislation due out in April 2020 within Europe that will require manufacturers to support their products for a minimum of ten years and some US States will apparently be implementing a similar law too; although I understand it does not apply to computers - more's the pity!

                                              I have bought lots of things in the past for my computers that have given me such joy over the years and then they have suddenly stopped working. When this happens we have several possible choices we can make. . We can wait patiently for the original supplier or manufacturer to eventually put it right (provided they are still around), we can throw it away muttering under our breath, or we can bite the bullet and buy something new and better to replace it with.

                                              I stopped using FSX/SE with my old legacy aircraft ages ago when I bought P3Dv4 and I don't regret my decision for one minute. You say you already have P3D, so why not treat yourself to PMDG's latest B737NGXu while you wait for the legacy installer/activation to be fixed? If you read the Sticky in the General Announcements forum with news of its release I have a feeling you might change your mind and thank PMDG again for an aircraft you will be able to enjoy even more in FS2020 as well as P3D and hopefully for many years to come!
                                              Last edited by Michael Codd; 11Nov2019, 18:50.
                                              Michael Codd

                                              Comment


                                                #25
                                                Originally posted by Michael Codd View Post

                                                In that case, Will, I don't understand why you are in effect cutting off your nose to spite your face.

                                                Whether we like it or not, PMDG are under no legal obligation to fix their legacy products, even though RSR has apologised and said they will. There is legislation due out in April 2020 within Europe that will require manufacturers to support their products for a minimum of ten years and some US States will apparently be implementing a similar law too; although I understand it does not apply to computers - more's the pity!

                                                I have bought lots of things in the past for my computers that have given me such joy over the years and then they have suddenly stopped working. When this happens we have several possible choices we can make. . We can wait patiently for the original supplier or manufacturer to eventually put it right (provided they are still around), we can throw it away muttering under our breath, or we can bite the bullet and buy something new and better to replace it with.

                                                I stopped using FSX/SE with my old legacy aircraft ages ago when I bought P3Dv4 and I don't regret my decision for one minute. You say you already have P3D, so why not treat yourself to PMDG's latest B737NGXu while you wait for the legacy installer/activation to be fixed? If you read the Sticky in the General Announcements forum with news of its release I have a feeling you might change your mind and thank PMDG again for an aircraft you will be able to enjoy even more in FS2020 as well as P3D and hopefully for many years to come!
                                                I don't think countries should be forcing business to do that honestly. I just expect better out of a business. But I guess that is just a matter of personal opinion. PMDG has every right to no longer support their products, and I am not entitled to still use older products I have purchased. However, I am entitled as a consumer to let my wallet do the talking by never purchasing a PMDG product again. They made a decision and so am I. I really mean no disrespect, I really don't. I'm just tired of waiting and I am not to confident in PMDG in fixing this issue. Yeah, I know they said they are working on it and it is complicated, but I am just going to move on. No more PMDG products for me because of this experience.

                                                I wish I could break the bank on some newer add-ons. However I am not really in the financial situation to do so. My decision is nothing personal. PMDG needs to look out for themselves and I need to look out for my self as well. I am just not going to waste time checking in on this subject matter anymore. You seem like a good guy, Michael. And I am sure those heading PMDG - their hearts are the right place. But like I said, just not really up for spending my money here after this experience.
                                                Last edited by iamthecaptainnow; 11Nov2019, 20:33.
                                                Will Barker

                                                Comment


                                                • Michael Codd
                                                  Michael Codd commented
                                                  Editing a comment
                                                  Good luck with your flight simming - wherever it takes you.
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