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How to Approach Big Airports Without ATC?

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    How to Approach Big Airports Without ATC?

    Happy New Year all!

    I was planning a flight into KATL yesterday, and ran into the issue of how to reasonably simulate flying in there with just VORs. Can it even be done without ATC to provide vectors?

    I was planning to come in on the horizontal path of the WHINZ4 STAR…provides solid VOR guidance until WHINZ, but then even the last point VICTU isn’t fully defined and it’s all vectors after that ( ._.)

    Do we just not visit these big Class Bravo airports or is there some credible way to perform the approach? I was thinking of maybe using Little Navmap or something to figure out a vector ahead of time and just fly it and hope to grab the localizer? I don’t love the GPS or looking at moving maps in flight but I guess some flights will simply require it…

    838D266C-8A30-46AF-8866-7B9FDEC2C2B4.jpg
    Matt Smith

    #2
    WHINZ ->VICTU is also straight VOR-Radial, R052 ATL-VOR.

    After VICTU its Vectors, so I'd turn to HDG213 to reach BAMBU, on the ILS for RW28R thereafter ILS...


    Some other Airports will have complete NON-RNAV Procedures, others like EHAM, only have RNAV STAR&SID's. in those cases its either online-flying on Vatsim, etc. to get vectors, or biting the bullet and looking at a moving map, to follow the Procs
    Julian Fouquet

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by nitroSkirata View Post
      WHINZ ->VICTU is also straight VOR-Radial, R052 ATL-VOR.

      After VICTU its Vectors, so I'd turn to HDG213 to reach BAMBU, on the ILS for RW28R thereafter ILS...


      Some other Airports will have complete NON-RNAV Procedures, others like EHAM, only have RNAV STAR&SID's. in those cases its either online-flying on Vatsim, etc. to get vectors, or biting the bullet and looking at a moving map, to follow the Procs
      Thanks! Yes I realize that VICTU is on that same 052 radial as WHINZ, but there’s no distance indicated for it on the chart :/

      It’s basically all estimates after WHINZ which I guess is OK really. I’ll make a list of vectors and just simulate ATC assistance.


      Matt Smith

      Comment


        #4
        Yes, after VICTU, its guesstimation, but the errormargin is high, since you just have to get in range of the ILS :P anything between 180 to 223 from VICTU will get you on that ILS

        Also the charts show WHINZ->VICTU as 11nm on R52ATL, wich locates it at 29nm DME(ATL)
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        Julian Fouquet

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by nitroSkirata View Post

          Also the charts show WHINZ->VICTU as 11nm on R52ATL, wich locates it at 29nm DME(ATL)
          Thanks! I am not trying to be stupid on purpose here 🤣but can you tell me how you calculated the DME range from ATL? I saw the 11.0 miles but I don’t see what to subtract it from!

          EDIT: nevermind, I see it on the Little Navmap screen. The published chart is not as helpful…
          Last edited by MattS; 31Dec2021, 14:12.
          Matt Smith

          Comment


            #6
            In case you need to improvise I found it to work pretty well to simply head towards the airport VOR and join the 10 mile arc around it to intercept the ILS.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Emi View Post
              In case you need to improvise I found it to work pretty well to simply head towards the airport VOR and join the 10 mile arc around it to intercept the ILS.
              Thanks - I like this a lot.
              Matt Smith

              Comment


                #8
                Notes of the WHINZ4 STAR,
                2. RADAR required.
                3. Turboprop and turbojet aircraft.
                You're not a turbojet, and you're asking how to perform this STAR without radar vectors. But as you've realized, you can't fly this STAR without (atc) radar.
                So you can't use this STAR, as a starting point.
                You need to re-plan.

                I will forever be a cheerleader of California Classic Propliners. Check out this tutorial over there.
                Last edited by randomTOTEN; 31Dec2021, 22:39.
                Robert Toten

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by randomTOTEN View Post
                  Notes of the WHINZ4 STAR,

                  You're not a turbojet, and you're asking how to perform this STAR without radar vectors.
                  Not really…please forget the STAR, I’m sorry I even confused things by mentioning it lol. My problem upon reaching the airport is the same regardless of the arrival path.

                  Originally posted by randomTOTEN View Post

                  But as you've realized, you can't fly this STAR without (atc) radar.
                  So you can't use this STAR, as a starting point.
                  You need to re-plan.

                  [/URL]
                  Indeed. We can’t fly ANY published radio-based approach into KATL without ATC vectors, so what I was really asking here was how people are simulating that ATC vector function in a present-day scenario.

                  I will check out the link, thanks!

                  Matt Smith

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by MattS View Post

                    Not really…please forget the STAR, I’m sorry I even confused things by mentioning it lol. My problem upon reaching the airport is the same regardless of the arrival path.



                    Indeed. We can’t fly ANY published radio-based approach into KATL without ATC vectors, so what I was really asking here was how people are simulating that ATC vector function in a present-day scenario.

                    I will check out the link, thanks!
                    I use Pilot2ATC as a replacement for stock MSFS ATC. It provides vectors when necessary.

                    I also stay away from RNAV procedures.
                    Last edited by jsmarko3; 01Jan2022, 14:03.
                    Regards,
                    --Joe Markowski

                    In my defense, I was left unsupervised.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by jsmarko3 View Post

                      I use Pilot2ATC as a replacement for stock MSFS ATC. It provides vectors when necessary.

                      I also stay away from RNAV procedures.
                      Agreed, I would if at all possible avoid an RNAV approach with this A/C. And realistically, you are not going to go into an airport such as ATL without ATC vectors. That said, to simulate non-ATC you can fly the DME arc. Or from ViCTU simply a visual approach announcing your intentions on UNICOM.
                      Brian Murphy FSX- 747-400 / MD-11 / MSFS DC-6

                      Comment


                        #12
                        My personal opinion is that you have 2 choices.

                        The airport you've chosen in this case very clearly has the expectation that radar victor service will be provided to nearly every inbound aircraft. You have to consider the context here. Hartsfield - Jackson Atlanta International Airport KATL regularly tops the list of the busiest airport in the USA, and within the very top of the entire planet.

                        If I'm reading this right, OAG reports that KATL was the busiest airport on the entire planet in December of 2021.

                        So it's not, "How do I approach big class bravo airports using only VOR," but instead, "how do I approach one of the busiest airports on the planet - in the modern day - using only VOR."

                        You want to approach this airport without radar vectors. This simulates either a radar or radio failure. The context here, how likely is it that the FAA would tolerate even a momentary radar failure at the busiest airport in the country?

                        When you read between the lines of the approaches and arrivals, it's pretty clear what Atlanta's expectations are.

                        1. You're getting radar vectors. Or,

                        2. You're using RNAV/GPS.

                        But I think it would be inappropriate to see this and make the logical leap from applying Atlanta's expectations to every class B in the country (or planet). Because that's clearly not true in many cases.
                        Robert Toten

                        Comment


                        • Murf7413
                          Murf7413 commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Agreed, but if Matt want's to simulate going into ATL in the late 40's early 50's it was only a municipal airport back then and didn't have an approach radar back then. I don't think it even had a tower until the military took it over in 1940. I digress...

                          Anyhow... unless you are not flying on VATSIM or something like that, it shouldn't be an issue.

                          In reality, airports like ATL have redundant systems. even here in Orlando, we either have, or are getting the ASR-11 Digital Surveillance Radar (DASR), and keeping the ASR-9 (which has been around since the late 80's, also known in the military as the AN/GPN-27) as a back up. ;-)

                        #13
                        Originally posted by randomTOTEN View Post
                        My personal opinion is that you have 2 choices.

                        The airport you've chosen in this case very clearly has the expectation that radar victor service will be provided to nearly every inbound aircraft. You have to consider the context here. Hartsfield - Jackson Atlanta International Airport KATL regularly tops the list of the busiest airport in the USA, and within the very top of the entire planet.

                        If I'm reading this right, OAG reports that KATL was the busiest airport on the entire planet in December of 2021.

                        So it's not, "How do I approach big class bravo airports using only VOR," but instead, "how do I approach one of the busiest airports on the planet - in the modern day - using only VOR."

                        You want to approach this airport without radar vectors. This simulates either a radar or radio failure. The context here, how likely is it that the FAA would tolerate even a momentary radar failure at the busiest airport in the country?

                        When you read between the lines of the approaches and arrivals, it's pretty clear what Atlanta's expectations are.

                        1. You're getting radar vectors. Or,

                        2. You're using RNAV/GPS.

                        But I think it would be inappropriate to see this and make the logical leap from applying Atlanta's expectations to every class B in the country (or planet). Because that's clearly not true in many cases.
                        Thanks, yes in hindsight this really is kind of a dumb question, but I appreciate your time/input. I will just bite the bullet and use the GPS for that segment of the arrival/approach if I am simming ‘current day’ as the Most Hated Man On The Planet who arrives into KATL in a propliner at 120kts haha.

                        Have a good day -

                        Matt

                        Matt Smith

                        Comment


                          #14
                          Originally posted by Murf7413 View Post

                          Agreed, I would if at all possible avoid an RNAV approach with this A/C. And realistically, you are not going to go into an airport such as ATL without ATC vectors. That said, to simulate non-ATC you can fly the DME arc. Or from ViCTU simply a visual approach announcing your intentions on UNICOM.
                          Thanks! I appreciate the input.
                          Matt Smith

                          Comment

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