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Trim takeoff and descend POH

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    Trim takeoff and descend POH

    Hi guys

    I'm starting to use the DC6 without AFE, I found the various takeoff tables etc but I didn't find any reference to the descent, which BMET should I use? at how many RPM?

    I also did not understand if I have to trim the plane before takeoff, are there any parameters that I can use?

    Thank you very much
    Alessandro Muntoni

    #2
    Originally posted by Alessandro1922 View Post
    Hi guys

    I'm starting to use the DC6 without AFE, I found the various takeoff tables etc but I didn't find any reference to the descent, which BMET should I use? at how many RPM?

    I also did not understand if I have to trim the plane before takeoff, are there any parameters that I can use?

    Thank you very much
    Allesandro,

    I would suggest to watch the tutorial videos on the PMDG youtube channel where Robert explains the proper descent procedure and how to bleed of the speed.
    Chris Makris (Olympic260)
    PMDG Technical Support
    http://www.pmdg.com

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by cmakris View Post

      Allesandro,

      I would suggest to watch the tutorial videos on the PMDG youtube channel where Robert explains the proper descent procedure and how to bleed of the speed.
      Hi Chris, thanks 😊

      I saw the various videos of Robert, but I wanted to know if there are any tables like for the climb and the cruise. I also can't find any indication of how to trim the airplane for take-off
      Alessandro Muntoni

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Alessandro1922 View Post

        Hi Chris, thanks 😊

        I saw the various videos of Robert, but I wanted to know if there are any tables like for the climb and the cruise. I also can't find any indication of how to trim the airplane for take-off
        Take off trim is not something that is calculated like you are used to with FMS equipped jets, it's basic: Set about 0 (a touch more or less depending on your preferences). I like to keep a little nose down pressure on the yoke during takeoff roll up to about 80 and there isn't much to rotation, just some back pressure and then relax where you are going to climb at just 200-400 fpm while you get the gear and flaps up and allow her to accelerate above 140. Climb at 160. Very basic flying.

        The POH does give two important power settings you need to know for takeoff. First, take off power is limited to just a few minutes so when you clean the aircraft up (flaps and gear) and you're heavy set METO (maximum except for takeoff) power of 2600/190 (I use rpm/bmep) and if you are not heavy go straight to climb power (2400/165) and keep advancing the throttle as you climb at 160 with power set to 2400/165.

        I've not watched the tutorials, but what works for me in descent is pretty simple. The important first step is the descent plan, so assuming a groundspeed of 240 kts (4 nm/min) you need to estimate the distance required to descend to pattern altitude a few miles before the airport (a few miles to maneuver and slow). It's not a bad idea to add a few miles to allow maneuver in the airport traffic area. I descend at 1000 fpm with power set to about 100 psi BMEP at whatever RPM I was cruising at (usually in the range of 2000 - 2300). I then will slowly reduce throttle to keep BMEP from increasing and as required to keep IAS below 240. When I am within about 20 nm of airport I reduce power to 80 psi BMP and when able start reducing descent rate to allow deceleration. When within range (3 nm from airport) I should be at about 170 KIAS to allow 10 deg of flap and the approach phase begins. I can't say my way is the best but it has never resulted in excessive engine wear or tear (all green all the time) and it's my way.
        Dan Downs KCRP
        i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 2080Ti

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Alessandro1922 View Post

          Hi Chris, thanks 😊

          I saw the various videos of Robert, but I wanted to know if there are any tables like for the climb and the cruise. I also can't find any indication of how to trim the airplane for take-off
          I made my own checklist in part by listening to the AFE and what he was saying during each phase of flight. When you select descent he says 26 inches and 2400 RPM so that is what I put in my checklist for flying without the AFE. As for trim, I use 2 degrees nose up for takeoff and for descent and landing it is whatever I need to comfortably control they pitch.
          Chris Hague, KSYR "Flying GPS Free since 1987"
          Ryzen 7 3700x, 32 GB DDR4 3600 mhz, RTX 2060 OC 6 GB GDDR6 MSFS DC-6, P3Dv5 737 NGXu

          Comment


          • DDowns
            DDowns commented
            Editing a comment
            Yup, 26 inHg MP is about the same as 100 psi BMEP..... or maybe 120? Not sure, haven't flown her since beta was over.

          • Major Chris
            Major Chris commented
            Editing a comment
            I was trying to make a checklist to fly without the AFE and I decided to just listen and write down everything the AFE says for each checklist and it worked out fairly well when combined with the tutorials and POH.

          #6
          Thanks guys,

          yesterday I made the first flight without AFE and I did not destroy any engine

          I need a lot of practice
          Alessandro Muntoni

          Comment


            #7
            I have been noticing lately that if you hit descent with the AFE, the BMEP goes to around 80, which allows the aircraft to slow down. If I level off a long distance from the airport, the airspeed gradually decays to around 120-130 knots while still at 80 BMEP. So I am assuming that the aircraft is working correctly, and if a very long level approach is what I am flying, the AFE should be disabled so one can manually increase the BMEP so that airspeed stays around 140 knots or above. If airspeed gets too low, even with altitude hold enabled, the aircraft starts descending when speed is below 120 knots. Does that sound correct?
            Bob Cardone

            Comment


              #8
              Originally posted by bobsk8 View Post
              I have been noticing lately that if you hit descent with the AFE, the BMEP goes to around 80, which allows the aircraft to slow down. If I level off a long distance from the airport, the airspeed gradually decays to around 120-130 knots while still at 80 BMEP. So I am assuming that the aircraft is working correctly, and if a very long level approach is what I am flying, the AFE should be disabled so one can manually increase the BMEP so that airspeed stays around 140 knots or above. If airspeed gets too low, even with altitude hold enabled, the aircraft starts descending when speed is below 120 knots. Does that sound correct?
              Check your Vref speed on the chart on the upper overhead chart. Typical approach speeds I fly are about 125 kts with 95 kts as my target over the threshold.

              The significance of 80 BMEP is that is the recommended minimum BMEP to ensure the prop doesn't windmill the engine. You can safely reduce below that as you descend over the approach end of the runway of course, but only for landing.

              The trick to speed control partly lies in your flap/gear configuration. I start my approach with Flap 20 and only increase flap when I desire a slower speed as in slowing from 140 to 125. I usually am not in configuration for Flap 40 until final mile of approach and Flap 50 only drops out when slowing to 95 for example.

              I cannot advise on the use of the AFE; however, I firmly believe that the pilot flying when landing must have their own hands on the throttles.
              Last edited by DDowns; 14Sep2021, 15:23.
              Dan Downs KCRP
              i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 2080Ti

              Comment


                #9
                The great thing about the DC-6 is that it's a manually flown airplane. Even on autopilot you decide about absolutely everything. There's not even an FCU changing the fuel flow like in a turboprop, it's just you, the flightcontrols and the engine controls. Whatever you do it has a certain effect on the airplane and the flight, be smart and use it Keep in mind that it's a heavy aircraft with a lot of inertia but also many brakes. 4 prop plates, flaps, gear. In the DC-6 I'm not ashamed or afraid at all to drop the gear on a long, extended downwind if I have to and I also can set the props to a higher RPM to increase their drag. Just keep the 80 BMEP in mind as Dan says.

                I personally never use the flaps to adjust my glide path as adviced by Robert and rather adjust their power slowly and carefully although it might not be the correctest way to handle it but I have flown the DC-6 for 450hrs now and have only experienced 3 engine failures from which I'd give my left hand that one of them had external causes, it surely seemed so. Given the Connie was called the biggest 3 mot with it completing trans oceanic flights on three engines I can imagine the DC6 had a similar record. So everything in best order lol.
                i7-6700k, GTX 1080TI, 32GB DDR4 RAM @2666MHz, 4k
                Marc Ehnle

                Comment


                  #10
                  Yes, the Connie was known as the world's best tri-motor, but it was because it used the Wright R-3350 Turbo Compound engines. They were notoriously unreliable. The Power Recovery Turbines in the exhausts were referred to as Parts Recovery Turbines because of the engines' penchant for dropping exhaust valves. The DC-6, on the other hand, used the Pratt & Whitney R-2800 which is regarded as one of the most reliable engines ever made. So, no, the DC-6 did not have a similar record. In fact, a common quip from the day was that the DC-6 was a four engine plane with three bladed propellers and the Connie was a three engine plane with four bladed propellers. (This information from the book "America's Round Engine Airliners" - a great read for DC-6 fans)

                  BTW, the book also mentions why the throttles on radials should not be pulled back too far during descent. If they're pulled back far enough that the props are windmilling (actually adding drag rather than thrust) the oil wedge on the main bearing is compromised so bearing wear increases dramatically. If you have realistic damage turned off in the sim, then you can do whatever you want. If you have it turned on, you might be doing engine overhauls a lot more frequently.
                  Dave Kral 34TS

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