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Pitch Twitchy?

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    Pitch Twitchy?

    Is it me or is the 777 very twitchy around the pitch axis? I have a nicely calibrated PFC Jetliner yoke and find manual flying much more difficult than any other aircraft of PMDG or other vendors. I have the FBW to show on the PFD so I know I'm trimmed right. On landing I feel I'm wrestling with the plane quite a bit and this is in calm wind. Anyone else see this behavior?
    Eric Fisher

    #2
    I concur with you on the pitch axis.

    Philip Kang
    Philip Kong

    Comment


      #3
      Same for me. I have to fight the aircraft and the resulting pitch oscillations are a real immersion breaker. I remember having the same problem back when the PMDG 777 first came out for FSX.

      Marcel Kade

      Comment


        #4
        I am sure it will be tackled as in FSX, too.
        Philip Kong

        Comment


          #5
          Same here.
          Mert Aydın

          Comment


            #6
            yep seems touchy to me but i have nothing to base that on other than previous version and other sim aircraft
            Mike Teague - p3dv5.1 - B736 B737 B738 B739 B772 B77L B77W B744 B748

            Comment


              #7
              The fly-by-wire has been very weird from the beginning. I had high hopes that it would be solved with this update, but it hasn't been. It's hard to describe, but the real aircraft flies fine with just two fingers on the yoke, whereas in the PMDG example I am constantly feeling like I'm fighting it. Sometimes, when applying nose-up yoke, when released to neutral, the pitch will increase? If the aircraft was designed like this in the real world it would never be certified.

              ...but I remain optimistic that this will be fixed in a future update! It's such a shame because the simulation of, for example, the FMS is on point.
              Wybe Witteveen

              Comment


              • crimtye
                crimtye commented
                Editing a comment
                SixthPod, thanks for your reply. I have already discussed and provided my findings to Emanuel who I’m sure will pass them on!

              • SixthPod
                SixthPod commented
                Editing a comment
                fantastic news. regards

              • SixthPod
                SixthPod commented
                Editing a comment
                B777ER indeed. PMDG are receptive like that. RSR and his team stands by the quality of his products, as do I.

                Its a pity it took a second round of public protest (there are historic threads like this one at AVSIM) to achieve the attention the control issue requires, but fortunately, they're right on it now, which is nice to hear and it's no thanks to you all!

                So, thanks a lot for the assistance. Bare with pmdg as it attempts to make it's adjustments to the systems.

                Rest assured, I will continue to squawk as necessary... as i'm sure you will too.

              #8
              same here very bad. i have kept this bird grounded suffering from the pitch trim problem, the non rotating fans at takeoff/climb/cruise and also the vacuum sounds from all variants from the passenger front engine wing view.

              Chris "KoaWood"
              Enthusiast

              Comment


                #9
                Originally posted by crimtye View Post
                The fly-by-wire has been very weird from the beginning. I had high hopes that it would be solved with this update, but it hasn't been. It's hard to describe, but the real aircraft flies fine with just two fingers on the yoke, whereas in the PMDG example I am constantly feeling like I'm fighting it. Sometimes, when applying nose-up yoke, when released to neutral, the pitch will increase? If the aircraft was designed like this in the real world it would never be certified.

                ...but I remain optimistic that this will be fixed in a future update! It's such a shame because the simulation of, for example, the FMS is on point.
                Yep, good analysis, it does seem like you're fighting it when flying manually. The FBW cannot be correct in its current iteration. Hopefully it's just a simple code error they will find like with the fan animations.
                Eric Fisher

                Comment


                  #10
                  Originally posted by B777ER View Post
                  The FBW cannot be correct in its current iteration.
                  You're right, and from experience I can tell you for a fact that it's not correct! At the moment the PMDG 747 handflies more like the real 777 than the PMDG 777 does.
                  Wybe Witteveen

                  Comment


                    #11
                    I agree as well...initially thought it was my current joystick; which is a brand new Airbus TCA sidestick combo. But now I see that the pitch issue is turning into a trend, since it only happens with the 777 ER expansion... I am sure that there'd be some hotfixes or updates to come... Not too worried about it...
                    -Jorge Brewer_
                    "NKAWTG"

                    Comment


                    #12
                    I've flown a couple of flights with the newly released upgraded 777. All seems well except for the landing. The nose wants to stay in the air and then slams down on the runway. I didn't have that problem with the previous version.

                    Regards
                    Scott
                    Scott Cebula

                    "...now let's get this thing on the hump - we've got some flyin' to do!" ~ Major Kong from "Dr. Strangelove"

                    Comment


                    • DDowns
                      DDowns commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Scott, I have learned to expect to give the trim button a nose down jab after I disconnect A/P on final approach. It takes a second but that nose up tendency is thus removed. I have found this to be necessary most every of the 40 I've flown thus far.

                    #13
                    Originally posted by B777ER View Post
                    Is it me or is the 777 very twitchy around the pitch axis? I have a nicely calibrated PFC Jetliner yoke and find manual flying much more difficult than any other aircraft of PMDG or other vendors. I have the FBW to show on the PFD so I know I'm trimmed right. On landing I feel I'm wrestling with the plane quite a bit and this is in calm wind. Anyone else see this behavior?
                    I have found it initially weird also, but then I realized something. And that is a great tip for anyone to check before thinking it is the plane's FBW problem.
                    Ensure that the dead zone in P3D's control settings is turned down to the minimum. As it seems like the bigger the dead zone the worse the fighting gets with the FBW. I personally find it quite realistic as most of us are used to the regular trim systems where you trim for the attitude as your speed increases / decreases, configuration changes or just even thrust changes. The 777, and I am sure you are aware of it is way different on this - it positions the elevator like any other plane on the ground however in the air it is very different from other planes most users are used to. It positions the stabilizer automatically to compensate for any thrust changes, configuration changes or speed changes. So I believe, and please don't take it as an offence at all, there is a huge learning curve for all of us to get used to trimming only for speed changes and not touching the trim at all for any other reason while you are in Normal mode.

                    Bear in mind I am no 777 expert but love reading the FCOM's and the FCTM especially these days when I have been home for months now

                    Hope you find it helpful.
                    Balint

                    Comment


                    • B777ER
                      B777ER commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I completely bypass all P3D settings with my hardware. My control settings are quite calibrated and have been so for quite some time. This is on their end, not mine.

                    • balint22
                      balint22 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Okay, I didn't know you can do that. Don't quote me on that but may it not be the issue that you bypass it? I believe the recommended way is to have your controls set up in P3D according to PMDG. Obviously that is just my thinking I could be wrong...

                    #14
                    Yeah, I'll take the real-world pilot's word for it for sure. There was one instance where after takeoff, I was climbing at a nice steady 250kts, with constant CLM2 thrust. I was hand flying, got it all trimmed with the assistance of the blue FBW trim indicator, centered my stick, and then the airplane sent an un-commanded dramatic up-elevator input, raising my pitch by 7 deg. for no reason at all. Happened over and over, and even sometimes pitched down. Freakin craziness. Hand flying is really bad right now, so AP is the only way to go. I have already seen that PMDG is acknowledging and working on it, so I'll wait for the fix before buying the -200ER.
                    William Genovese

                    Comment


                    • DDowns
                      DDowns commented
                      Editing a comment
                      William is there a chance that there was a wind shift or turbulence encountered? There is a fix underway, according to RSR, that deals with unexpected weather influence on FBW and this sounds like it could be in that category.

                    • B777ER
                      B777ER commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Good to hear Dan!

                    • Simflyer86
                      Simflyer86 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      nah, I did the flight with clear weather just to test out the new update. I was just getting random up/down pitches from the elevator when in a constant trimmed speed, and constant thrust.

                    #15
                    Originally posted by Simflyer86 View Post
                    Yeah, I'll take the real-world pilot's word for it for sure. There was one instance where after takeoff, I was climbing at a nice steady 250kts, with constant CLM2 thrust. I was hand flying, got it all trimmed with the assistance of the blue FBW trim indicator, centered my stick, and then the airplane sent an un-commanded dramatic up-elevator input, raising my pitch by 7 deg. for no reason at all. Happened over and over, and even sometimes pitched down. Freakin craziness. Hand flying is really bad right now, so AP is the only way to go. I have already seen that PMDG is acknowledging and working on it, so I'll wait for the fix before buying the -200ER.
                    I'd highly suggest to send a support ticket on here: https://support.precisionmanuals.com/Main/
                    The more people to send a ticket about it, the more likely it will be dealt with in a quick manner, I guess

                    You should create an account if you haven't got one, as it is a separate system from the forum and PMDG accounts.
                    Balint

                    Comment


                      #16
                      Originally posted by KoaWood View Post
                      same here very bad. i have kept this bird grounded suffering from the pitch trim problem, the non rotating fans at takeoff/climb/cruise and also the vacuum sounds from all variants from the passenger front engine wing view.
                      "Vacuum" sounds have been fixed for all models - coming soon in the next update .....
                      Armen Cholakian
                      PMDG Sound Engineer

                      Comment


                        #17
                        Originally posted by B777ER View Post
                        Is it me or is the 777 very twitchy around the pitch axis? I have a nicely calibrated PFC Jetliner yoke and find manual flying much more difficult than any other aircraft of PMDG or other vendors. I have the FBW to show on the PFD so I know I'm trimmed right. On landing I feel I'm wrestling with the plane quite a bit and this is in calm wind. Anyone else see this behavior?
                        I haven't done many flights yet as I have a really bad PC performance atm in the 777 but I had this feeling too. I'm not sure whether it happened due to the massive stutters or due to the plane's aerodynamics but with pretty much the same movements on the hardware yoke's elev axis I say very different and best to be described as a "jumping nose" behaviour. at one moment it flew pretty nicely and matching my input and the next second it took down the nose so fast that I had to pull her out of a serious 1500fpm dive.

                        I believe I read in one of the many threads about the pitch behaviour that they were aware of the problem and working on it. Can't find it anymore though.
                        i7-6700k, GTX 1080TI, 32GB DDR4 RAM @2666MHz, 4k
                        Marc Ehnle

                        Comment


                          #18
                          I had a similar experience. 777-300 set up on the ILS, AP/AT engaged, stable approach configured for landing at Vref+5. Disengaged the AP at ~1,000 ft AGL and the pitch became unstable (fought the AC all the way to the ground). Prior to the update, the aircraft flew very smoothly (minor control input corrections). No settings changed other than uninstall/reinstall of the 777 prior to this flight. Hopefully they can find the bug soon, as the 777 was a dream to hand fly before the update!
                          Tom Weber
                          Aerospace Engineer
                          Instrument Rated Private Pilot

                          Comment


                          • cappy773
                            cappy773 commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Couldn't agree more FBW128. I find manual flying to be far more difficult than the previous version of the 77W. Once I land the Nose Wheel refuses to drop as the Aircraft decelerates. I have to push the Yoke forward to get the Nose Wheel on to the RWY.

                            Regards
                            Graham Mercer

                          #19
                          Damn... even here.
                          Seriously pittch problem.
                          Hope they can do an update soon.
                          Greetings
                          Piet Van de Wiele - Belgium

                          Comment


                            #20
                            Not a boeing 777 pilot, but:
                            I had the same feelings after my pattern practice (both AT ON and OFF) with the 777F. She seemed very volatile in pitch and did not want to settle at all. Just as some poster wrote, I needed to fight the AC from 1000ft AGL to the tarmac
                            I do not use FSUIPC for control inputs, max sensitivity and small deadzone (10) in P3D. In fact same config is used in V4 with the PMDG 777 which was an extremely pleasant aircraft to hand fly.
                            Best regards, Niklas Fridell| PPL(A) SEPL

                            Comment


                              #21
                              I agree on the pitch as well I just did a landing in clear weather and I had to fight to keep the aircraft from doing a nose dive
                              Angus Rowlands i7 9700K, GTX 1080TI, 32GB Ram, Windows 10 Home. 737,777,747,DC6

                              Comment


                                #22
                                Originally posted by crimtye View Post

                                You're right, and from experience I can tell you for a fact that it's not correct! At the moment the PMDG 747 handflies more like the real 777 than the PMDG 777 does.
                                If until PMDG is willing to outsource flight dynamics to entities familiar and experienced with correctly modeling a FBW system in P3D, nothing will change. If everyone will remember, PMDG modeled Airbus FBW logic when the original PMDG 777 was released quite some time ago. It then took another year for PMDG to address and attempt to correct the FBW logic to the correct Boeing version. We were left with a weird, completely unrealistic FBW logic at that time. Now PMDG have 'updated' the 777 FBW logic with another iteration that's as equally weird as the previous one.

                                This cycle will continue endlessly if the past 10 years are used as a reference datum. It is what it is.



                                Love and Laughter, with cute little Unicorns farting Rainbows,

                                -Julian Speer

                                Comment


                                  #23
                                  I also noticed that the pitch axis is extremely sensitive. I found myself chasing the FD on final. I thought it was just me but I think we're experiencing the same thing. I'm using the TM Warthog.
                                  Louis Vallance | P3D v5.1 HF1 (no shaders) | i9-9900K (OC @4.8GHz) | RTX 2080 | 32GB

                                  Comment


                                    #24
                                    In the meantime, try increasing the CTL Column Null Zone from default 1.0% to 10.0% in the FMC SIMULATION options.

                                    This helped improve experience significantly and will do until the update is released.

                                    Not sure if all this will be fixed in the pending update but fingers crossed!
                                    Leo Cal

                                    Comment


                                    • Adallago
                                      Adallago commented
                                      Editing a comment
                                      my FBW experience is on Airbus and like others here, I was initially highly frustrated until i RTM and adjusted the null zone to 10%.
                                      now, the aircraft doesnt misbehave until I fly it poorly. with that said, I think the FBW could use some refinement here and there and then we will be in a better place.

                                      Alessandro Dallago

                                    #25
                                    glad im not the one to notice that too.


                                    why you need to make a null zone of 10% that will make a non linear curve. i'm on FSUIPC aznd null zone is set between -256/+256.

                                    do you guys confirm my post ? : https://forum.pmdg.com/forum/main-fo...rectly-trimmed
                                    PMDG 747-400/-800
                                    PMDG 737NGXu

                                    Camille MOUCHEL-BLAISOT

                                    Comment


                                      #26
                                      For what it's worth, my other PMDG aircraft do not have the pitch issue with manual flying. I would agree with the P3D setting suggestion (or FSUIPC) if all aircraft had a pitch issue when in manual. Like most have mentioned it's only in the 777 currently. PMDG did rework the aircraft so this type of thing is almost expected: there's always something to fix on a new release and it might take some time but I believe they will fix it.

                                      The NGXu is fun to fly and seems very stable to me (after many updates) now: the same will eventually be true of the 777. I can't wait to have her fly smooth again . . . the T7 has always been my favorite aircraft from PMDG. Just glad to see she's finally getting her due attention
                                      Will Thomas
                                      KMDT - Flight Sim 1998 to Present
                                      P3D, X-Plane, FSX
                                      Aircraft Painter

                                      USAF Veteran [Aircraft Electrician / Egress Tech]

                                      Comment


                                      • FlyByWire128
                                        FlyByWire128 commented
                                        Editing a comment
                                        100% agree. This is definitely something that can be fixed... it's just a matter of time and the dev team will fix it.

                                        I look forward to it being corrected and hand flying the 777 again.

                                      #27
                                      It will either be fixed quickly or in 8 years
                                      Alex Pugh

                                      Comment


                                        #28
                                        Greetings,

                                        DDowns, thanks for the tip about adjusting the trim setting prior to touchdown.

                                        Also, does changing the null zone setting from 1% to 10% alleviate the tendency of the nose to not want to come down during touchdown?

                                        Regards,
                                        Scott
                                        Scott Cebula

                                        "...now let's get this thing on the hump - we've got some flyin' to do!" ~ Major Kong from "Dr. Strangelove"

                                        Comment


                                        • DDowns
                                          DDowns commented
                                          Editing a comment
                                          Null zones are personal preference.... I prefer zero null zone on all controls except brake axis.

                                        #29
                                        This is scarily similar to the MAX problem what we're all experiencing, mostly, if not exclusively, on final. I too have the issue, and even flying it completely manually, something seems to happen with FBW between 2,500 and 1,000 AGL (guestimate, didn't test this yet) and I have to fight it down to the runway. I'm sure PMDG will address this quickly.

                                        Cheers,
                                        Pete
                                        Peter Zaehringer
                                        PPL SEL 2002
                                        PC specs: i7-9700K oc 4.7GHz, Asus TUF Z390,16GB 3200 Gskill Ripjaws, Nvidia RTX2080

                                        Comment


                                        • SixthPod
                                          SixthPod commented
                                          Editing a comment
                                          indeed, Peter - I would agree.

                                          I hope it is solved in an update.

                                        #30
                                        I feel left out here. I have no pitch issues at all with the 777 What am I doing wrong?
                                        Paul Gugliotta

                                        Comment


                                        • SixthPod
                                          SixthPod commented
                                          Editing a comment
                                          Probably nothing, Paul. There is certainly a variability to it.
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