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Typical payload of a BBJ

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    Typical payload of a BBJ

    I know this could vary greatly depending on the flight, but what is a good estimate to start with on how much payload to use on a BBJ? Maybe 14 pax and 2500lbs of baggage? I usually use what PFPX gives me for commercial flights, but I find the baggage estimates to be quite low. With a light payload I was hitting over 5000fpm on the climb out. Not sure if this is typical of a 737, but if so then this bird has quite a bit more power than I expected.
    Last edited by [email protected]; 24Oct2020, 04:00.
    -Spencer Hoefer

    #2
    Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
    I know this could vary greatly depending on the flight, but what is a good estimate to start with on how much payload to use on a BBJ? Maybe 14 pax and 2500lbs of baggage? I usually use what PFPX gives me for commercial flights, but I find the baggage estimates to be quite low.
    2500lbs of bags is roughly 70 bags.. I would say maybe like 300lbs of bags or less
    Alex Kulak
    PMDG Studier and flyer

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      #3
      Okay thanks
      -Spencer Hoefer

      Comment


        #4
        Even in a BBJ it can vary. Are you flying one executive and his spouse or a whole team of people? Are they on a one day business trip (in other words, no luggage since they are coming right back) or are they on an extended trip?

        Here are my figures: 190lb per person, 55lb per bag (one to two bags per person)

        So if I'm flying a family of four on an extended trip, I'll have 190*4 + 55*6 (two people have one bag, two people have two bags). That gives me 1090 pounds (1.1 tons) up from the ZFW.

        Edit: Why 190lb for a person? A while back I was experimenting with the weight in PMDG aircraft and concluded that PMDG models a person at 190lb.
        Last edited by HighFlier; 24Oct2020, 04:37.
        James Ward

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        • Swaluver88
          Swaluver88 commented
          Editing a comment
          carry on duh lol

        • Mad_X
          Mad_X commented
          Editing a comment
          Imagine one of the charter operators puts an excess baggage fee on

        • DDowns
          DDowns commented
          Editing a comment
          Last I checked the PMDG weight per person was 86kg/185.6lbs.

        #5
        Originally posted by HighFlier View Post
        Edit: Why 190lb for a person? A while back I was experimenting with the weight in PMDG aircraft and concluded that PMDG models a person at 190lb.
        Only on the 737. On the 747 and the 777, it appears to be 195 pounds. Support ticket was submitted last month.
        Captain Kevin

        Kevin Yang

        Comment


          #6
          Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
          I know this could vary greatly depending on the flight, but what is a good estimate to start with on how much payload to use on a BBJ? Maybe 14 pax and 2500lbs of baggage? I usually use what PFPX gives me for commercial flights, but I find the baggage estimates to be quite low. With a light payload I was hitting over 5000fpm on the climb out. Not sure if this is typical of a 737, but if so then this bird has quite a bit more power than I expected.
          If you talk Russian oligarch with their family on a skiing vacation that number of bags sounds good. Otherwise: a little less than that .

          I heard that Boeing and Airbus typically say that 6-8 people are on their planes.

          [email protected] Pletsch

          Postnigs with typnig errors since 1984

          Comment


            #7
            The BBJ's can really carry anything from zero (positioning flight) to full load.
            It all depends on what your CEO is going to do at your destination.

            There might just be one pax if he's literally going on vacation.
            You might have a full house if he's taking a whole team to a large business meeting.

            If you're flying politicians there might be journalists sitting in the cattle class at the back of the plane.

            So many possibilities, it can literally be ANY load.

            There usuallly wouldn't be a lot of cargo. Maybe a bag per person? A BBJ is not a holiday bomber where everybody tries to squeeze another set of shoes in as long as the suitcase still closes.

            Comment


              #8
              Can confirm, on the BBJ each person is 190 pounds...

              When you are rich you can work out better...
              Andrew Hill
              i9-9900KS 64GB Dual RTX 2080 Super
              P3D V5 & MSFS 2020

              Comment


                #9
                I used to work in International Operations for an International Trip Support company (basically a dispatcher for private jets).

                Passenger Weights / Flight Planning
                Almost exclusively, 99.9% of the time, we flightplanned all the business jets, from 747s to Lear 45s, at 200 lbs per person (this is total payload, inclusive of bags). In the sim, just plan your BBJ flight in PFPX with a certain empty weight (PMDG's BBJs weigh 96,200 lbs - lean for a BBJ, must have modern materials inside) and a certain payload and just set the FMC in the sim to whatever ZFW those two values give you on the flight plan. PMDG's BBJ with 8 pax (1600 lbs) would give you a ZFW of 97,800 lbs. Just plug 97.8 into the FMS and don't worry about what the breakdown of seats and baggage are on the left. You only care about the weight. The simulation of passengers and bags is just on the flight plan and the performance of the plane. If you want to pretend to have a heavier BBJ (the ones I worked for all weighed 98,500 to 101,500 lbs - but this was between 15 and 5 years ago, so materials are certainly lighter nowadays), just use that in PFPX, add your payload, and use that ZFW in the FMS. (101,500 + 1600 = ZFW 103,100) Enter 103.1 for the ZFW, again disregard the pax/bags breakdown on the left because who cares, and now you have a 101,500 lb BBJ with 8 pax.

                Passenger Loads
                As far as pax counts go - it was usually between 1 and 8, averaging 4. Most non-head-of-state BBJs aren't certified to carry more than 19 passengers because that's the line for changes in many international aviation and tax regulations. As has been said before, a lot depends on your mission. Head-of-state aircraft would carry more. Charter could widen the pax count range up to around 13 and involve way more reposition flights. Private (flying for a corporation or a high net worth individual) almost never more than 8. Also, if it's an overnight flight, there's usually only 1 permanent bedroom (2 pax) and you usually have to combine 2 seats or an entire divan to create berths. So overnight flights imply another limitation to roughly 8 pax. Also if you have a head-of-state configured BBJ with a first class airline-style section in the back, you'll need more baggage space - so the 9 tank configuration probably isn't what you'll use. 9 tanks imply another limitation to total pax due to reduced baggage space.

                Reposition legs - Private vs Charter
                Private flights usually involve far fewer empty reposition flights. Usually the plane is based where the owner lives and takes them and their guests on their missions right from their primary home. Occasionally you reposition the plane back to base if the owner is going to be in one location away from their primary home for long periods or to another airport if the destination has parking restrictions (think Cannes Film Festival in LFMN or World Cup Finals) or unusual missions to pick people up in other places.

                Charter flying involves almost more repositioning than live legs. Whether your plane is based at a certain airport or is a "floater," meaning it never or rarely returns to a home base, you almost always have minimum one repo for every live leg. This is because it's rare for you to pick up a charter originating where the plane is currently sitting. People, even on the airlines (hence hub-and-spoke system), don't all move in the same direction at the same time. Repo from the plane's current location to where the client wants to be picked up. Fly them where they want to go. Repo to the origin city of the next client or back to base. Charter BBJs are the tip top of the pricing spectrum, so there aren't tons of people asking to charter one from tons of cities all the time. Your repo legs are probably going to be long flights, potentially globe-spanning flights, to reach the next very-high-net-worth charter client. Planes with 12-hr range, or huge and heavy and expensive like BBJs, cater to the whole planet's worth of wealthy individuals. Also, like airline tickets, people are willing to spend more on longer flights - so your BBJ will probably be flying long revenue legs for charter customers. Track FlexJet's GLF6s (LXJ650, LXJ651, and LXJ652) or theirs or NetJet's GLEX or GL5Ts for charter ideas. Currently, in a pandemic-stricken environment, it's way more leisure flying than business flying. So you'll see a lot of island/beach and mountain destinations.

                Extremely fascinating world. I hope the flightsimming community is inspired to learn more about this with the release of the BBJ. It's SO much more interesting than airline flying (which I also love).
                Last edited by Lseatflyr; 24Oct2020, 16:25.
                Tony Fiore
                E175/LR60/LRJET

                Comment


                • B777ER
                  B777ER commented
                  Editing a comment
                  The 96,200lbs will be higher with aux tanks installed.

                • Lseatflyr
                  Lseatflyr commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Oh it actually changes based on your aux fuel tank selection? That’s pretty cool if it does. I might have looked at it and noted it before I changed the aux fuel tanks option to 9.

                • B777ER
                  B777ER commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Yes, you can note the changes in the FMC. Add the aux tanks and remove all fuel and cargo and look at what the weight displays.

                #10
                Thanks for the insight Tony. The BBJ seems to provide even more flexibility than a freighter (compared to scheduled liner operations).
                Mike Dryden
                GFO Janitor
                Retrieving lost & abandoned airframes

                Comment


                  #11
                  Originally posted by Hilly32 View Post
                  Can confirm, on the BBJ each person is 190 pounds...

                  When you are rich you can work out better...
                  Actually, there's a reason for this. For weight calculations from what I read, FAA uses 190 pounds per passenger during the summer and 195 pounds during the winter.
                  Captain Kevin

                  Kevin Yang

                  Comment


                    #12
                    Originally posted by Lseatflyr View Post
                    Extremely fascinating world. I hope the flightsimming community is inspired to learn more about this with the release of the BBJ. It's SO much more interesting than airline flying (which I also love).
                    Hi Tony - very interesting stuff there. I was just wondering the other day how private jets filled their dispatch needs. Now i know. Do you have any idea what we're talking about cost wise to charter a BBJ? Is it a per hour or per mile cost? thnx

                    Richard Bansa

                    Comment


                    • Emi
                      Emi commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Usually it's per hour. Depending on the kind of operation you do you'll end up anywhere between 20.000$ and 50.000$ per hour. Ahhhh, of course with no limits going upwards!

                    • Lseatflyr
                      Lseatflyr commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I don’t know for sure, but “tens of thousands USD per hour” is probably fairly accurate. Google will tell you $9000-$16000/hr, but that’s probably just the airplane. Usually charter operators charge you an hourly rate for the airplane, then some fees on top of it: crew fees, a fuel rate (which on the BBJ will boost it way up), international fees of permits and ground handling and stuff, etc.

                    • CAPFlyer
                      CAPFlyer commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Not official, but I saw a quote from a reputable operator a couple years ago at ~$16K/hr for a BBJ. I would figure probably ~$20K/hr for a BBJ2 and higher for a BBJ3. While you might think it's a lot larger than a Global 7500 or Gulfstream 650, it really isn't overall and fuel consumption is fairly comparable on those longer legs. As such, the premium that can be charged is not as high as one would believe. During high demand times it'll be higher, but the above are probably good prices overall.

                      Also, published charter rates typically include everything (fuel, crew, fees, etc). When you actually charter a jet the rate charged will be adjusted based on your trip and could be a little bit higher, but typically will be slightly below as long as you're not going somewhere that has super high fuel prices or handling fees outside the normal amounts.

                    #13
                    Judging by your replies, (not that i didn't know before) but I won't be setting foot on a BBJ anytime soon So I'll be flying the hell out of the PMDG version. But really appreciate you guys constantly dropping gems in this forum for us.

                    Richard Bansa

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