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Air start curiosity?

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    Air start curiosity?

    Just out of Curiosity, how many people here know how to do an airstart when the need becomes a reality? No cheating here and going into the FMC and clearing the problem.
    Alex Kulak
    PMDG Studier and flyer

    #2
    I know how to do it ^^) Not that hard.
    Last edited by Dzosef; 11Jul2020, 10:45.
    Matthew Chalupniczak

    Comment


      #3
      Same, had to do it when APU was not engaging, so I simulated an INOP APU 😁
      I have to admit, it's a bit harder on the 747, but the procedure is not very different.
      Giovanni D. Tarar
      FAA CPL+IR Single & Multiengine Land
      I love flying when I'm in a bad mood

      Comment


        #4
        Yes, no problem. Never had to do it in the NGXu though, so I don't know how well it works.

        Comment


          #5
          You don't need to know it. When this happens you just grab the FCOM. Read and do step by step FCOM 1 SP.7.5. First you do "Starting with Ground Air Source" on the stand and after pushback you read and do "Engine Crossbleed Start".
          Omar Josef
          Spain

          Comment


            #6
            Most of our pilot can do it out of memory, but it's not bad to do a SP referening to FCOM.
            I'll have to read-and-do it for A320 then
            ZHU Hai
            B737 Ground instructor

            Comment


              #7
              Oh, we can all do it from memory. It's not so complicated. In my company we're very strict with these things. The FO will at least have a quick read of the procedure and talk about it during the brief. We do these kinds of starts maybe once per year. The procedure might have changed or the may be something to consider that we'd miss if we don't review the supplementary procedure first. Let's call it safety culture. Manuals are there to help and having them indexed and in an ipad leaves you no excuse to not use them.
              Omar Josef
              Spain

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Kevin Hall View Post
                Yes, no problem. Never had to do it in the NGXu though, so I don't know how well it works.
                I tried it yesterday. Assisted start and windmilling start worked as expected.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Aeromar View Post
                  Oh, we can all do it from memory. It's not so complicated. In my company we're very strict with these things. The FO will at least have a quick read of the procedure and talk about it during the brief. We do these kinds of starts maybe once per year. The procedure might have changed or the may be something to consider that we'd miss if we don't review the supplementary procedure first. Let's call it safety culture. Manuals are there to help and having them indexed and in an ipad leaves you no excuse to not use them.
                  But where is the line, since using LVL CHG is also a SP to be strict.....
                  ZHU Hai
                  B737 Ground instructor

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by AngelofAttack View Post

                    But where is the line, since using LVL CHG is also a SP to be strict.....
                    Per the FCOM....

                    Procedures accomplished in flight, or those that are an alternate means of accomplishing normal procedures (such as manual engine start), are usually accomplished by recall. Infrequently used procedures, not normally accomplished (such as engine crossbleed start) are usually accomplished by reference
                    Simon Kelsey

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by skelsey View Post

                      Per the FCOM....
                      I wish it'd be that easy. I flew the same plane with APU INOP three days in a row last summer, each day 4 sectors.
                      By the 12th sector we could easily have done the procedure from memory.
                      Dare you though, if anything goes wrong you'll be f***ed right in the a** for doing that. That mustn't even be something you messed up in the procedure, it could be something external you had no influence on. Insurance will still use any chance they have not to pay.

                      Comment


                      • Emi
                        Emi commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Unless you are particularly interested in paying a 10 million dollar bill for a new engine and search for a new job afterwards.

                      • Swaluver88
                        Swaluver88 commented
                        Editing a comment
                        I mean they would just Terminate you. Let the union try to bring you back, and 8 months afterwards you probably would be at a better job anyways. That's stating if COVID19 wasnt a reality

                      • Emi
                        Emi commented
                        Editing a comment
                        COVID is a different story, nothing to be discussed in public.

                      #12
                      Originally posted by Emi View Post

                      I wish it'd be that easy. I flew the same plane with APU INOP three days in a row last summer, each day 4 sectors.
                      By the 12th sector we could easily have done the procedure from memory.
                      Dare you though, if anything goes wrong you'll be f***ed right in the a** for doing that. That mustn't even be something you messed up in the procedure, it could be something external you had no influence on. Insurance will still use any chance they have not to pay.
                      Quite! My point was more to illustrate the line Hai was querying between using FLCH (SP.4 -- in my B744 FCOM anyway) -- a procedure routinely accomplished in flight and thus one Boeing says should usually be accomplished by recall -- vs an engine ground pneumatic start, an 'infrequently' (in the grand scheme of things, if not in some individual circumstances) carried out procedure that is accomplished on the ground with lesser time pressure where there FCOM can be more readily referenced -- and Boeing are basically saying 'we don't expect you to commit this to memory'.

                      Of course, Boeing are quite vague ("usually" -- and also what is "infrequent" may also be a matter of opinion) -- they are basically providing guidance toward their intent (lest anybody feel it appropriate to pull the FCOM out prior to selecting FLCH) but leave much up to individual operators to determine what precisely they feel must be done by reference or otherwise.

                      Airmanship naturally comes in to it as well -- Boeing suggest that a manual engine start is something which would usually be accomplished by recall by virtue of being an 'alternate means of accomplishing a normal procedure' -- but nothing in that precludes one having a sneaky peek at the FCOM before or during if you consider it appropriate. Likewise, I entirely agree with you that it would be foolish not to have the FCOM open and 'read and do' if one's operator specifies so, even if one feels entirely confident with the procedure -- for the same reasons you state -- after all, most pilots could probably recite the checklists from memory but it would be rather foolish and undisciplined not to pull it out and read it!
                      Simon Kelsey

                      Comment


                        #13
                        Of course. There's always something... Was it 30PSI? Was it 25? Does bleed air switch on the second engine need to be off or on? On the 757, some of our airplanes needed engine bleeds off for start and some others needed them on. There's just always something. I'm on my third year flying the 737 and still every now and then I get a lapsus where I mix up values, limitations and quirks of between the 737 and the 757. Having all the manuals with index in the iPad is just really good. In other companies, referencing a manual means to open a suitcase, get a manual (was it on my side or his side?), browse through half ripped pages and then leave an open manual on the glare shield... today there's just no excuse.
                        Omar Josef
                        Spain

                        Comment


                        • Dzosef
                          Dzosef commented
                          Editing a comment
                          (737) I was wondering the same. Should the eng. bleed on opposite engine be turned on or off?

                          EDIT: I read the procedure (in fcom) and it states yes, both bleeds should be on but something else is bothering me. At the top of the page there is written that "Engine No. 1 must be started first" but I thought it depends on the position of the (asu) cart. If the cart is standing on cpt. side in front of the engine (just like in pmdg) then I would rather prefer starting eng no.2 and not having cart being sucked into the engine.
                          Was this procedure updated in later releases of the fcom?

                        • Aeromar
                          Aeromar commented
                          Editing a comment
                          They always place the ASU to the right of the airplane. We start 1 on stand if the stand allows it and then after ground equipment is clear we start 2 with crossbleed.

                        #14
                        Originally posted by AngelofAttack View Post

                        But where is the line, since using LVL CHG is also a SP to be strict.....
                        Very interesting take from someone in an airline training department. You are encouraging your pilots to perform complex and rarely performed procedures by memory?

                        That goes against every CRM principle I have ever been taught. Things like abnormal engine starts are not time sensitive. Take your time and get it right.
                        Last edited by smaddox; 13Jul2020, 02:00.
                        Steven Maddox
                        FAA ATP CFII

                        Comment


                          #15
                          I agree with both Steve and Omar. It has become more clear to me in recent years that CRM as we kniw it has not made its way across the globe yet. Sadly.
                          Regards,
                          Eric Hill

                          Comment


                            #16
                            Originally posted by smaddox View Post
                            You are encouraging your pilots to perform complex and rarely performed procedures by memory?
                            Not really. His question is a rethorical one, as in "there's so many SP's, how shall we know which ones to perform by memory and which ones not".

                            As an example, the Isolated Pack operation is also an SP. We do it every day and on every flight in summer though. Shall you take the FCOM out for it all the time?
                            It's two switches, you can clearly do that by memory.

                            If your company had only one aircraft and that ones flying without APU for a while then you'll know the air start procedure by heart after the first couple of flights as well. So why *not* do it by memory then?

                            What Zhu really means with his post is that you have to apply good airmanship and use common sense to decide what you can and can not do.

                            Comment


                              #17
                              Originally posted by Emi View Post

                              Not really. His question is a rethorical one, as in "there's so many SP's, how shall we know which ones to perform by memory and which ones not".
                              This must be a cultural difference between the USA and rest of the world (shocking, I know. We always have to be different here in the States). Our manuals clearly specify which procedures are to be done via flow and which are read and do out of the QRH. If we defer the APU, for example, the MEL will direct us to run the NNC for an air start, and then the crossbleed start after that.

                              Regarding your example, pack isolation is accomplished via the engine start flow. It's a normal thing that's done every flight and there is no NNC for isolating a pack in the QRH because it's included in the normal flow.

                              Originally posted by Emi View Post
                              If your company had only one aircraft and that ones flying without APU for a while then you'll know the air start procedure by heart after the first couple of flights as well. So why *not* do it by memory then?
                              I still wouldn't do it by memory because the manuals say to read and do, and I could be violated if I go against that. It's as simple as that. Most guys know the BLEED TRIP OFF QRH procedure by heart, but would you ever perform a QRH procedure by memory? At my company, not in a million years. Caution light comes on, QRH comes out.

                              Again, just cultural differences here. I fully respect that there is more than one right way of doing things and one way is not necessarily better or safer than the other. I am guilty of speaking in absolutes far too often and really should be more open minded.
                              Steven Maddox
                              FAA ATP CFII

                              Comment


                                #18
                                It's actually pretty cool to be working a flight with an airstart on the ramp. Done it a couple time and that ASU is loader than hell.
                                Alex Kulak
                                PMDG Studier and flyer

                                Comment


                                  #19
                                  Originally posted by smaddox View Post
                                  Regarding your example, pack isolation is accomplished via the engine start flow. It's a normal thing that's done every flight and there is no NNC for isolating a pack in the QRH because it's included in the normal flow.
                                  It's definitely not Boeing SOP to do so, nor do all US operators do it. At least those whose manuals I saw (three major ones) definitely don't do it as SOP.

                                  Originally posted by smaddox View Post
                                  I still wouldn't do it by memory because the manuals say to read and do, and I could be violated if I go against that. It's as simple as that. Most guys know the BLEED TRIP OFF QRH procedure by heart, but would you ever perform a QRH procedure by memory? At my company, not in a million years. Caution light comes on, QRH comes out.
                                  So will you get out the QRH for an OFF SCHED DESCENT light?
                                  You use the FCOM for LVL CHG?
                                  To quote the QRH checklist instructions from Boeings original manuals as provided in the NGXu (not altered by any airline): "The pilot flying may also direct reference checklists to be done by memory if no hazard is created by such action" (QRH CI.2.5)

                                  Comment


                                    #20
                                    Originally posted by smaddox View Post
                                    Caution light comes on, QRH comes out.
                                    I don't believe that you get the QRH for every light. Dual bleed? Center pumps? Do you really get the QRH for those things? The manual itself allows the pilot to perform certain steps by memory. It also states which ones must absolutely be read and done and confirmed without exceptions. And then there's also your training department correcting bad practices and telling you which ones are ok to be done by memory and this should be pointed out on every line check. Now if you tell me your OMA says that you have to read every single light, then that's a whole different story.
                                    Omar Josef
                                    Spain

                                    Comment


                                      #21
                                      It's definitely not Boeing SOP to do so, nor do all US operators do it. At least those whose manuals I saw (three major ones) definitely don't do it as SOP
                                      I don't know what to tell you.. left start switch to CONT, isol closed, right pack AUTO/HIGH after #2 rollback. Not a "big 3" operator here in the States. Once again, there's more than one way to do it.

                                      I don't believe that you get the QRH for every light. Dual bleed? Center pumps? Do you really get the QRH for those things?
                                      Certainly not. Those are caused by normal operation. In fact, there are procedures included in the "Normal" section of the manual. "If center tank fuel is used, turn the LEFT and RIGHT CTR FUEL PUMP switches OFF at the first indication of low pressure from either pump." and "The OFF SCHED DESCENT light illuminated indicates the selected flight altitude has not been reached and the aircraft is descending. No action is necessary if the aircraft is returning to the airport of departure."

                                      If an unexpected light comes on, diagnose that problem with the QRH.

                                      To quote the QRH checklist instructions from Boeings original manuals as provided in the NGXu (not altered by any airline): "The pilot flying may also direct reference checklists to be done by memory if no hazard is created by such action" (QRH CI.2.5)
                                      Must be operator specific. "Flight Deck Crews are expected to accomplish non-normal checklists found in the QRH. These checklists ensure maximum safety until appropriate actions are completed and a safe landing is accomplished." Memory items are accomplished first, then verified by the QRC and, time permitting, QRH.

                                      Steven Maddox
                                      FAA ATP CFII

                                      Comment


                                        #22
                                        So yeah, operators have different SOPs, we know that. Our isolated pack operation flow is different for example. Of course we do it by memory but I wouldn't lie if I said that as summer approaches, I have a look at the text. Same as for winter. It's just airmanship.
                                        "Number 2 stabilized!", isolation valve closed, right pack auto... continue with ENG1 start. We always do the rest of the flow (gens, apu, ingnition, probe heat, anti-ice, pneumatics, etc) only once we have two good starts and part of it only once we have the signal.
                                        Omar Josef
                                        Spain

                                        Comment

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