Announcement

Collapse

PMDG Forum Rules

1) SIGN YOUR POSTS. Since 1997, we have asked users to sign their real name, first and last, to all posts in the PMDG forum. We do this in order to keep conversations personal and familiar. You took the time to be here, we want to get to know you. This is one of the few rigid rules that we enforce regularly. We do so because we feel that forums in which users must engage one another personally are generally warmer, more collegial and friendly. Posts that are unsigned will be quietly removed without comment by the moderators, so to make your life easy- we recommend enabling your forum signature so that you never need to remember. Do this by clicking the username pull-down at the top right, then selecting "User Settings." You will find the signature editor on the ACCOUNT tab, about half way down the page. Look for "Edit Post Signature." Be sure to click the "Show Signatures" box.

2) BE NICE. We are all simmers here and no matter our differences of opinion, we share a common love of aviation, computing and simulation. Treat everyone else in the forum with respect even when you disagree. If someone frustrates you, walk away from the conversation or ask for a moderator to get involved. Speaking of Moderators, they prefer not to be treated as "The Thought Police" but if any behavior infringes on the enjoyment of another user or is otherwise considered to be unacceptable in the moderator's judgment, it will be addressed in keeping with our view of ensuring that this forum remains a healthy environment for all simmers.

3) BE LAWFUL: Any behavior that infringes upon the law, such as discussion or solicitation of piracy, threats, intimidation or abuse will be handled unsympathetically by the moderators. Threats and intimidation may, at the moderator's discretion, be provided to law enforcement for handling.

4) BE FACTUAL: When you post, always be factual. Moderators will remove posts that are determined not to be factually accurate.

5) RESPECT COPYRIGHTS: Posting of copyrighted material such as flight manuals owned by Boeing or various airlines is not allowed in this forum. If you have questions related to copyrighted material, please contact a forum moderator for clarification.

6) RESPECT PMDG: We love to hear what you like about our products. We also like to hear what you think can be improved, or what isn't working. Please do tell us and we will always treat your feedback with value. Just be sure to treat the team respectfully, as they do put a significant amount of effort into building and maintaining these great simulation products for you.

7) RESPECT PMDG DEVELOPERS: All of the developers will spend some time here. Given the ratio of developers-to-users, it simply isn't possible for us to answer every post and private message individually. Please know that we do try to read everything, but developer workload is simply too high to manage personal contact with tens-of-thousands of users simultaneously. In most cases, members of the development team will stick to conversations in the forum and will not answer private messages.

8) RESPECT OTHER DEVELOPERS: PMDG has always advocated for a strong development community and we have many friends within this community. Every developer offers something unique that helps to make the simming community larger and more vibrant. We insist that you treat our friends respectfully.

9) RESPECT MODERATORS: Moderators have a tough job, and none of them enjoy having to stomp out negativity. If a moderator has to weigh in to keep a thread peaceful, please respect that effort and refrain from giving the moderator any grief.

10) If you require official support for any of our products please open a support ticket through the support portal, https://support.precisionmanuals.com

11) This forum is designed primarily as a vehicle for the PMDG development team to interact with our customers, and for customers to interact with one another in a manner that is positive, supportive and assists in the general advancement of understanding the simulation and helping to make this and future simulations better. Any other use of this forum is not permitted, including but not limited to discussion of pricing policies, business practices, forum moderating policies, advertising of non-PMDG products, promotion of events, services or products that are not approved in advance by PMDG or any other topic deemed unacceptable by any forum administrator

12) HAVE FUN: This is the whole point of it all.
See more
See less

APP button

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    APP button

    Are we suppose to use the APP for RNAV and RNP appraoches too or just for VOR ILS NDB approaches and fly RNAV and RNP approaches using just LNAV and VNAV is the approach has published VNAV mins?
    Jordan Collins

    #2
    For an RNAV approach, you'll just use LNAV and VNAV. APP is not needed.
    Regards,
    Jan Mebus

    Comment


      #3
      You can if you want to.
      Tony Fontaine

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Learjet View Post
        For an RNAV approach, you'll just use LNAV and VNAV. APP is not needed.
        Ok what about for RNP appraoches?
        Jordan Collins

        Comment


          #5
          Depends if your airline has IAN captability or not.
          We don't and use LNAV/VNAV all the way, even for RNP.
          Greetings,
          Emanuel Hagen

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Emi View Post
            Depends if your airline has IAN captability or not.
            We don't and use LNAV/VNAV all the way, even for RNP.
            Ok so the NGXu has IAN right? So would I use it all of the time except for ILS approaches? Im so confused.
            Jordan Collins

            Comment


              #7
              Personally, after flying the actual plane for 6 years, I'm still confused about the purpose of IAN mode lol. We don't have it, and I don't know of a U.S. operator that uses it. We fly RNP approaches down to RNP .10, which basically yeilds minimums comparable to an ILS, and we do it in LNAV / VNAV. We rely on RNP procedures more than most other airlines and don't have IAN.

              I wonder how IAN would handle RF legs? It seems pretty tailored to straight in approaches?
              Andrew Crowley

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Stearmandriver View Post
                Personally, after flying the actual plane for 6 years, I'm still confused about the purpose of IAN mode lol. We don't have it, and I don't know of a U.S. operator that uses it. We fly RNP approaches down to RNP .10, which basically yeilds minimums comparable to an ILS, and we do it in LNAV / VNAV. We rely on RNP procedures more than most other airlines and don't have IAN.

                I wonder how IAN would handle RF legs? It seems pretty tailored to straight in approaches?
                The NGXu technically can fly RNP but it doesnt have the data for radius to a fix (i think) so it doesnt fly it properly. I guess IAN was used for LOC VOR and NDB approaches so that the plane could fly them like an ILS Im just not sure if and when Im suppose to use. I guess you fly RNAV and RNP in VNAV LNAV and ILS in raw data and NDB VOR LOC in IAN mode...does that sound about right ?
                Jordan Collins

                Comment


                  #9
                  IAN can use any CAT I non-precision approach. So it can be used durning RNP. I think PMDG is working on RF legs.
                  Tony Fontaine

                  Comment


                    #10
                    IAN--Integrated Approach Navigation. Here comes a link to an article on it but it is very simple. IAN capable aircraft can use the APP mode to project an FAC (Final Approach Course, analogous to a Localizer on an ILS) and a G/P (Glide Path, analogous to the Glide Slope on an ILS). These give the pilot visual cues for the approach on a non-precision approach. However they are ANALOGOUS and not the same. You cannot auto-land an IAN approach. I find it very handy to engage the APP when using the HUD, however I am hand flying. The only approach I autopilot from 10nm out is when I am suspecting I will have to do an AUTOLAND. So you can think of an IAN app as a NON PRECISION ILS because you get lateral and vertical cues for guidance.
                    http://www.flaps2approach.com/journa...rocedures.html
                    Mark Crabtree AAL3 | VP-HR

                    Comment


                    • Crabby
                      Crabby commented
                      Editing a comment
                      boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_22/737approach_story.html

                    #11
                    PMDG737NGXu EIDW ILS/LOC Rwy 16 (G/S OFF)
                    IAN


                    Attached Files
                    Vaughan Martell KDTW

                    Comment


                      #12
                      Oh I know what IAN IS, I just don't know see what the advantage is over LNAV/VNAV. Any non-precision approach (NDB, VOR etc.) can be flown in LNAV/VNAV to the same minimums you'd use for an IAN, so...

                      I've not used the NGXu, but my understanding is it has the same FMC / lateral nav capabilities as the NGX. It CAN do RNP procedures, but can only approximate RF legs using a series of waypoints to define an arc. Usually works ok though. I had a lot of fun building our custom RNP approaches and departures in SE Alaska into the NGX box. They're not as smooth as the real plane would do it, but they do usually drop you in a position to land at mins.
                      Andrew Crowley

                      Comment


                        #13
                        Originally posted by Stearmandriver View Post
                        Oh I know what IAN IS, I just don't know see what the advantage is over LNAV/VNAV. Any non-precision approach (NDB, VOR etc.) can be flown in LNAV/VNAV to the same minimums you'd use for an IAN, so...
                        To simplify all the approach procedures to a unified one, that's the main benifit.
                        ZHU Hai
                        B737 Ground instructor

                        Comment


                          #14
                          Using VNAV for vertical guidance includes the trap of forgetting to set the missed approach altitude. VNAV will level off at the MCP altitude.
                          In my airline we set the MCP altitude to minimums rounded up to the next 100ft at 2NM prior to the FAF.
                          Then at 1000ft AFE we set the missed approach altitude. However there are circumstances where this might be very close to the minimums and respectively to the MCP altitude.
                          If it enters ALT HOLD it is a mandatory go around for us. Thus you have to improvise sometimes. IAN would prevent this.
                          But hey, it costs money after all! ;-)
                          Greetings,
                          Emanuel Hagen

                          Comment


                            #15
                            Originally posted by Emi View Post
                            Using VNAV for vertical guidance includes the trap of forgetting to set the missed approach altitude. VNAV will level off at the MCP altitude.
                            In my airline we set the MCP altitude to minimums rounded up to the next 100ft at 2NM prior to the FAF.
                            Then at 1000ft AFE we set the missed approach altitude. However there are circumstances where this might be very close to the minimums and respectively to the MCP altitude.
                            If it enters ALT HOLD it is a mandatory go around for us. Thus you have to improvise sometimes. IAN would prevent this.
                            But hey, it costs money after all! ;-)
                            Emmm, in our SOP, you can set G-A alt as soon as you pass FAF on VNAV PATH and already lower than G-A alt by more than 300'
                            If using V/S mode for final approach, it's also the MCP's rounded DDA +300' to set G-A alt, rather than a setting 1000AFE, giving the fact we even got airport have MDH higher than 1000'
                            ZHU Hai
                            B737 Ground instructor

                            Comment


                              #16
                              Originally posted by AngelofAttack View Post

                              Emmm, in our SOP, you can set G-A alt as soon as you pass FAF on VNAV PATH and already lower than G-A alt by more than 300'
                              If using V/S mode for final approach, it's also the MCP's rounded DDA +300' to set G-A alt, rather than a setting 1000AFE, giving the fact we even got airport have MDH higher than 1000'
                              Sounds a lot better than ours, but there you can see just how different things can be in different airlines, even when flying the same type.
                              Greetings,
                              Emanuel Hagen

                              Comment


                                #17
                                We did that at my old airline. I like the way my current place does it better: set MCP to field elevation for the approach, and just don't mess with it from there unless you do go around. Every go-around has a "gear up, set/verify missed approach alt" call as standard, so once that becomes automatic, getting the missed set is just part of a standard go around procedure.

                                I guess I can see where an IAN approach simplifies the need to train different approach profiles, but the difference seems pretty minor.
                                Andrew Crowley

                                Comment


                                  #18
                                  Originally posted by fakeflyer737 View Post

                                  The NGXu technically can fly RNP but it doesnt have the data for radius to a fix (i think) so it doesnt fly it properly. I guess IAN was used for LOC VOR and NDB approaches so that the plane could fly them like an ILS Im just not sure if and when Im suppose to use. I guess you fly RNAV and RNP in VNAV LNAV and ILS in raw data and NDB VOR LOC in IAN mode...does that sound about right ?
                                  IAN is a completely artificial glideslope that the computer calculates. I think it’s there just to help pilots, not really something to be followed down to minimums. If you rely on IAN for any approach then you’re using it wrong. I personally have never used it, both in the NGX or NGXu. Did you try and find out more from the FCOM or FCTM?
                                  James Ward

                                  Comment


                                    #19
                                    Originally posted by HighFlier View Post

                                    IAN is a completely artificial glideslope that the computer calculates. I think it’s there just to help pilots, not really something to be followed down to minimums. If you rely on IAN for any approach then you’re using it wrong. I personally have never used it, both in the NGX or NGXu. Did you try and find out more from the FCOM or FCTM?
                                    You can fly IAN down to NPA mins, thats what it's there for.
                                    Jordan Collins

                                    Comment


                                      #20
                                      Originally posted by fakeflyer737 View Post

                                      You can fly IAN down to NPA mins, thats what it's there for.
                                      Then I must be mistaken, apologies. Did the FCTM or FCOM yield any clarification?
                                      James Ward

                                      Comment


                                        #21
                                        Originally posted by fakeflyer737 View Post

                                        You can fly IAN down to NPA mins, thats what it's there for.
                                        NPA as in non precision approach? According to FCTM the VNAV and IAN mins are one and the same. The difference is how the MCP ALT knob might be used in either case.
                                        Dan Downs KCRP

                                        Comment


                                        • Emi
                                          Emi commented
                                          Editing a comment
                                          Yep, that's correct.

                                        #22
                                        The basic difference between LNAV/VNAV and FAC/GP is that the former will respect every twist and turn in your flight path while VNAV will respect all possible intermediate altitude restrictions.

                                        On the other hand FAC/GP lock on to the final approach course (hence FAC) and glidepath angle akin to LOC/GS and thats it. The airplane flies on rails with one course target and no altitude restrictions between. For example, theoretical scenario your FAF can be 8 miles from runway with a turn while ATC vectords you "straight in" 15NM away. Engaging IAN will do the trick Ofcourse you can always do a DTO-INTC to FAF or IAF while vectored around with inbound course the final one. In this case LNAV and FAC are the same (with FAC though having slightly higher AP control gains akin to a LOC).

                                        it s a nice expensive toy.

                                        Vangelis
                                        Last edited by EMV; 01Dec2019, 23:20.

                                        Comment


                                          #23
                                          Originally posted by EMV View Post
                                          The basic difference between LNAV/VNAV and FAC/GP is that the former will respect every twist and turn in your flight path while VNAV will respect all possible intermediate altitude restrictions.

                                          On the other hand FAC/GP lock on to the final approach course (hence FAC) and glidepath angle akin to LOC/GS and thats it. The airplane flies on rails with one course target and no altitude restrictions between. For example, theoretical scenario your FAF can be 8 miles from runway with a turn while ATC vectords you "straight in" 15NM away. Engaging IAN will do the trick Ofcourse you can always do a DTO-INTC to FAF or IAF while vectored around with inbound course the final one. In this case LNAV and FAC are the same (with FAC though having slightly higher AP control gains akin to a LOC).

                                          it s a nice expensive toy.

                                          Vangelis
                                          are airlines still using it ...I mean RNP 0.1 changes everything right? No need for VOR NDB anymore so is IAN even in use much?
                                          Jordan Collins

                                          Comment


                                            #24
                                            Originally posted by fakeflyer737 View Post

                                            are airlines still using it ...I mean RNP 0.1 changes everything right? No need for VOR NDB anymore so is IAN even in use much?
                                            Until you fly to a non radar environment in Jordan and someone jams the GPS again. And there your ANP goes to heaven and you're happy still to have VOR's and NDB's.
                                            Greetings,
                                            Emanuel Hagen

                                            Comment


                                              #25
                                              Originally posted by Emi View Post

                                              Until you fly to a non radar environment in Jordan and someone jams the GPS again. And there your ANP goes to heaven and you're happy still to have VOR's and NDB's.
                                              Good Point!

                                              If youre flying a GPS approach with LNAV/VNAV mins would you use IAN for guidence once youre inbound or just stick with LAV/VNAV ?
                                              Jordan Collins

                                              Comment


                                              • DDowns
                                                DDowns commented
                                                Editing a comment
                                                If you have it use it. Seldom will a pilot not use all the tools available.

                                              #26
                                              I understand..
                                              Im a RW pilot too but Im not rated in an NG. I meant if youre using Vnav any and its giving you vertical guidance any way is there a point of using IAN on that type of App.
                                              Jordan Collins

                                              Comment


                                                #27
                                                But that's the thing: IAN gives you nothing that LNAV/VNAV doesn't, so it's not a matter of using all available resources. It's not an extra level of performance over LNAV/VNAV, it doesn't buy you lower minimums... it's just redundant.

                                                IAN also doesn't benefit you at all in a case of poor GPS reception or FMC failure causing you to not have required RNP, because the IAN guidance is not raw data, it's computed by the FMC the same way the LNAV/VNAV guidance is. In that case you'd actually need to use raw data in the form of VOR, LOC or NDB.
                                                Andrew Crowley

                                                Comment


                                                  #28
                                                  We are able to use IAN. The way it was described to me for use was that it creates a commonality in how we fly precision and non precision approaches. Used it on a few non precision and basically use the same procedures we do for an ILS. I actually prefer it over the LNAV/VNAV method.
                                                  Ben Fluth
                                                  737NG First Officer

                                                  Comment


                                                    #29
                                                    Well, IAN DOES give you something that LNAV/VNAV don't: The ability to fly any NPA with exactly the same procedures as an ILS. Even with almost the same indication.
                                                    That means less SOPs to worry about and less chance to mess something up because you have to do something which you haven't done in years.
                                                    Greetings,
                                                    Emanuel Hagen

                                                    Comment


                                                      #30
                                                      Originally posted by Emi View Post
                                                      Well, IAN DOES give you something that LNAV/VNAV don't: The ability to fly any NPA with exactly the same procedures as an ILS. Even with almost the same indication.
                                                      That means less SOPs to worry about and less chance to mess something up because you have to do something which you haven't done in years.
                                                      I see, thanks! How does IAN procedures differ from a regular RNAV approach though? I mean youre getting lateral and vertical guidence right either way, how does IAN make it simpler ?
                                                      Jordan Collins

                                                      Comment

                                                      Working...
                                                      X