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Unstable performance

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    #61
    Had a couple questions for the team:
    • Just wanted to confirm, Is this the first PMDG product that uses full PBR materials in the VC? Reason I ask is because I do not get issues with the B744\B748. Now after more testing, I found that the hit occurs mostly on my early morning flights, but tends to get better as the day goes on. I'm wondering if this is due to the way the light interacts with the PBR materials?
    • Did the other products also use DL in the VC? If they didn't, this would explain why I don't get performance issues in with the B747 at night.
    I think it might be time for me to upgrade my video card. Even without the NGXu, it was being pushed past its limits. This might be the first aircraft I tried that utilized full PBR in the VC and I'm starting to see the bottleneck. The 1050ti was great, but It's time to invest in something better I'm afraid.

    Really enjoying this aircraft so far! Still finding the little details.
    Last edited by Tino; 11Nov2019, 06:58.
    Sante Sottile - CYVR

    Comment


      #62
      I have a 1080ti with medium settings in P3D. Last night I loaded up the 737NGXu at KMSP at night on default runway. I had backlights, taxi and runway lights all on. My GPU load was holding steady at 60%. As soon as I added on click of VC floods it went up 12% to 72%. That’s crazy.
      Some folks are considering if they need to update there video cards because of one plane. We defiantly didn’t have this issue before the NGXu. I get less GPU loads on all other planes to include the GPU load hungry FSLabs which comes in at 45% load in the same scenario. This weekend I almost purchased a 2080ti card just so I could enjoy the NGXu at night when I decided it was way cheaper to just leave the VC floods off, LOL.
      Dan Moore

      Comment


        #63
        Just my last few flights' worth of testing here, in case it helps.

        To test performance "equally" I flew from FALE to FAOR. Used historic weather in ActiveSky (so that both flights would have the exact same weather). FALE was foggy with 3 cloud layers, FAOR was mostly clear with 2/8 at the most.

        Flight 1: 747-400 (the new one)
        Dynamic lighting: off in settings
        Time: daytime (noon)
        Experience: super smooth, fps between 45 and 60

        Flight 2: 737-800 NGXu
        Dynamic lighting: off in settings
        Time: daytime (noon)
        Experience: fps between 24 and 45, not smooth due to the very frequent dips below 30

        All other settings were identical between these two tests. The only difference between the two was the plane.
        (P3D was fully restarted between tests and shader cache cleared)

        GPU utilization didn't pass 70%, VRAM usage about 4GB (this is on a 1080Ti). Same behaviour on both planes.
        CPU usage was the same on both planes as well. Core 0 gets hammered, but that's fairly "normal". CPU is a Core i7 8700k clocked to 4.6GHz, running below 65 C. Stable clock.

        Chaseplane was used during both tests.

        In both cases, performance outside the clouds and inside the clouds was pretty much identical. No dramatic fps drops inside the cloud or fog layers.

        While flying flight 2 (in the NGXu) I also turned the EFB's off to see if that helps, but it made no difference in performance (maybe a 2-3 fps gain at the most). Interesting to note that the performance issues persisted, all the way from departure to arrival. On the ground, in the air, it was a constant low-performance. Performance at ground level was the same as at FL360. Did not have this issue with the 744.


        Hope this helps when looking at patterns.
        Last edited by aktorsyl; 11Nov2019, 13:53.
        Rean Opperman

        Comment


          #64
          Originally posted by aktorsyl View Post
          Just my last few flights' worth of testing here, in case it helps.

          To test performance "equally" I flew from FALE to FAOR. Used historic weather in ActiveSky (so that both flights would have the exact same weather). FALE was foggy with 3 cloud layers, FAOR was mostly clear with 2/8 at the most.

          Flight 1: 747-400 (the new one)
          Dynamic lighting: off in settings
          Time: daytime (noon)
          Experience: super smooth, fps between 45 and 60

          Flight 2: 737-800 NGXu
          Dynamic lighting: off in settings
          Time: daytime (noon)
          Experience: fps between 24 and 45, not smooth due to the very frequent dips below 30

          All other settings were identical between these two tests. The only difference between the two was the plane.
          (P3D was fully restarted between tests and shader cache cleared)

          GPU utilization didn't pass 70%, VRAM usage about 4GB (this is on a 1080Ti). Same behaviour on both planes.
          CPU usage was the same on both planes as well. Core 0 gets hammered, but that's fairly "normal". CPU is a Core i7 8700k clocked to 4.6GHz, running below 65 C. Stable clock.

          Chaseplane was used during both tests.

          In both cases, performance outside the clouds and inside the clouds was pretty much identical. No dramatic fps drops inside the cloud or fog layers.

          While flying flight 2 (in the NGXu) I also turned the EFB's off to see if that helps, but it made no difference in performance (maybe a 2-3 fps gain at the most). Interesting to note that the performance issues persisted, all the way from departure to arrival. On the ground, in the air, it was a constant low-performance. Performance at ground level was the same as at FL360. Did not have this issue with the 744.


          Hope this helps when looking at patterns.
          Yeah, painfully I'm on the same boat, performance is averaging 24 fps day or night, with or without DL on. EFB's off, like you said maybe 3 fps more. My system should be handling the NGXu better IMHO. (i7 4790K @ 5.0GHz, GTX 1080Ti, 16GB RAM)
          Sergio Naiberg

          Comment


            #65
            Can confrim that NGXU eating a bit of my frames.... Just test between Oslo and Bergen and fps was in VC 20-30 and with the old ones it was above 30Fps.

            My specs:

            Intel I7 8700K OC 4.7GHz

            GTX 1080TI

            12GB of ram

            M.2 hardrive for Prepar3D and windows.
            Erik Midbrod

            Comment


              #66
              In my experience I seem to have good frames at the departure airport but pulling into the gate at the arrival airport is somewhat of slide show...



              Steve Giblin
              Steve Giblin

              Comment


                #67
                Hello
                same for me, about 20% less fps than with the ngx. In same condition I come from 70 fps to 50 fps. It is not so bad ( i9 9900k 1080 ) but the Probleme is that i fly in Vr .! So in Vr you have 25. 30 unfortunatly it is really not enough.
                Guillaume LE MENTEC

                Comment


                  #68
                  Same here and for me it has not much to do with dynamic lights. Usually i fly in a very stable sim, lets take a few planes here for the example.

                  New UUEE, sitting on the cargo stands around 4h ago with todays weather in activesky (something around parking 80-83).

                  - 747-8 from you guys: 45 fps
                  - MD 80 from Leonardo (has also PBR cockpit) 55 fps
                  - FSL A320 30 fps
                  - Dash 8 Majestic 52 fps
                  - B737 from you guys 26 fps.

                  That is lower than the FSL(!) and half of the MD80 with somewhat same features, some more in some areas even.

                  I have a pretty decent system i would say, its enough to fly even most heavy airports with most planes pretty good. And whats more important imo, i know what i do in my sim, like not put the sliders all to the right side. I fly in around medium settings, 2k textures, medium autogen/world settings and dont have a single slider maxed. Also "only" in FullHD, not 4k or something.

                  - Intel 7700k on 4.5 ghz
                  - Nvidia RTX 2080, newest drivers
                  - 16 GB Ram
                  - WIndows 10 1903

                  No config tweaks (like fiberframetime, affinity masks etc)

                  I really like the plane but the biggest factor for me to buy it was my thinking that i would need a shorthaul airliner that still flies for the next years (irl, compared to the MD80 that soon will be out of service) and, compared to the FSL, has better fps.
                  Now im standing for the fact that it has even less fps. What brings this on same bar with the very very poor performaing CS 757.

                  I tried those tests without any dynamic lighting btw. There is something else.
                  Last edited by Senchay; 12Nov2019, 23:48.
                  Alex Wolff

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Chiming in once again.

                    Exterior performance is stellar in any phase of flight, which leads me to believe that most of my fps issues are tied to the interior visuals, and not systems.

                    Like I mentioned earlier, in C&D the Xu is quite snappy, maybe just a tad slower than the 748. I'm experiencing the first noticeable (but still tolerable) performance drop when I'm powering up the avionics. The heaviest hit comes from the cockpit lights in general, and flood lights in particular. This is when the plane becomes nearly unflyable and definitely not enjoyable at all.

                    Performance drop from the RainMaker and EFB is negligible (around 3-5 fps).

                    The Xu is the worst performing aircraft in my hangar. It beats even the notoriously slow TFDi 717 and CapSim 757-III.

                    EGLL at noon with clear skies and no traffic:
                    748 C&D: 45 outside, 35 inside
                    748 before take-off: 40 outside, 25 inside
                    Xu C&D: 40 outside, 30 inside
                    Xu before take-off: 35 outside, 8-10 inside

                    i7 6700 / GTX 960 4GB (latest drivers, shaders cache cleared) / 16 GB RAM.


                    I remember when LM first released their dynamic lights in P3Dv4: the performance was absolutely terrible. But over the next months they have improved it tremendously. I know that PMDG will almost certainly won't bother creating a separate 2D lights option for the Xu, but maybe you guys will find a way to optimize Xu's performance in other ways?
                    Last edited by dimkzr; 13Nov2019, 12:41.
                    Dmitriy Kozyrev -- i7-6700 / GTX 960 4GB / 16GB / Win10 1903

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by dimkzr View Post

                      I remember when LM first released their dynamic lights in P3Dv4: the performance was absolutely terrible. But over the next months they have improved it tremendously. I know that PMDG will almost certainly won't bother creating a separate 2D lights option for the Xu, but maybe you guys will find a way to optimize Xu's performance in other ways?
                      Yeah, Dynamic Lighting in VC is nice, but it is quite heavy, hope PMDG team can change it to be an option in FMC
                      Alexis Nguyen

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Unfortunately this issue is going on for a long time and reported as such that even on the 400 and -8 when you adjust GLARESHILD PANEL/FLOOD and AISLE STAND PANE/FLOOD light it is a momentary significant FPS drop, it is still there.
                        Now apparently is carried over to the new 737, as dimkzr and other people mentioned.

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by dimkzr View Post
                          Performance drop from the RainMaker and EFB is negligible (around 3-5 fps).
                          I’ve seen this in a few posts saying 3 to 5 FPS isn’t much of a hit. But it actually is when we’re talking about simply trying to maintain a reasonable 30 FPS. As soon as I turn on the taxi map, I can feel the hitching and stuttering.

                          Alex Pugh

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Just came across this on Facebook. Anyone want to give this a try. I’m at work and I only run a single monitor. I’d be interested in the findings.
                            https://youtu.be/TUjbLx5iO8M
                            Dan Moore

                            Comment


                            • Ephedrin
                              Ephedrin commented
                              Editing a comment
                              someone commented this below the vid:

                              they certainly do not have duplicate frames
                              this is a old fraps bug and shows wrong values
                              that already existed at FSX times

                            #74
                            Wow interesting,maybe 1 of the devs can explain
                            Best regards
                            Brendon Powys
                            Johannesburg

                            Comment


                              #75
                              That's just a false indication, it's typical in P3D with other than built-in FPS counter. It most likely displays refresh rate of the popup window. This is happening to me with Shadowplay fps counter for example on all modules.

                              Use default FPS counter (Shift+Z twice) for real fps.
                              Ján Valko

                              Comment


                                #76
                                Originally posted by AirBadger View Post
                                I’ve seen this in a few posts saying 3 to 5 FPS isn’t much of a hit.
                                What I meant is that you can't have these features for free, and their performance impact is reasonable - unlike the massive drop from the interior lighting.
                                Dmitriy Kozyrev -- i7-6700 / GTX 960 4GB / 16GB / Win10 1903

                                Comment


                                  #77
                                  Originally posted by Wise87 View Post
                                  Just came across this on Facebook. Anyone want to give this a try. I’m at work and I only run a single monitor. I’d be interested in the findings.
                                  https://youtu.be/TUjbLx5iO8M
                                  Just tested this, doesn't work.
                                  Dmitriy Kozyrev -- i7-6700 / GTX 960 4GB / 16GB / Win10 1903

                                  Comment


                                    #78
                                    Originally posted by dimkzr View Post

                                    Just tested this, doesn't work.
                                    Thanks for checking. Sounded too good to be true.
                                    Dan Moore

                                    Comment


                                      #79
                                      Well. I switched between limiting my Samsung monitor to 30htz back up to 60htz and I have a much smoother performance. Frames up as well. But still FPS drop when using night lighting and floods.

                                      I7 7700K OC @ 4.8
                                      1080Ti.

                                      isi Attie

                                      Comment


                                        #80
                                        for me the FPS are extremely sensitiv to the AA setting, as always when it comes to DL.

                                        I did some experiments:

                                        First I used my old Full HD PC screen, connected with a DVI cable. res 1920x1080. MSAA no issues at all up to 8x, even in bad weather. SSAA at night much worse than MSAA, obviously. Then I switched to my 4k TV screen and 3840x2160p, connected via HDMI. SSAA is pointless in 4k but I tried it anyway. the NGXu became absolutely unusable, my trackIR movements were a second behind my head, the mouse was so slow that I couldn't control it. This is similar to the 747 but much worse. (FSL320 unflyable too with these settings btw) Then I disabled AA and the 737 worked as fluently as if I sat in a real one. 40FPS+. same with MSAA 2x and 4x. any higher settings are pointless in 4k. There might also be an improvement if I managed the AA settings in the NVIDIA control panel instead of P3D but I haven't tried that out.

                                        maybe someone can work with that.

                                        edit: also the scaling options in the windows display settings make a BIG difference on my system. 100% is small but fine, 200% lags like hell.
                                        Last edited by Ephedrin; 13Nov2019, 15:12.
                                        i7-6700k, GTX 1080TI, 32GB DDR4 RAM @2666MHz, 4k

                                        Marc Ehnle

                                        Comment


                                          #81
                                          Originally posted by Ephedrin View Post
                                          for me the FPS are extremely sensitiv to the AA setting, as always when it comes to DL.

                                          I did some experiments:

                                          First I used my old Full HD PC screen, connected with a DVI cable. res 1920x1080. MSAA no issues at all up to 8x, even in bad weather. SSAA at night much worse than MSAA, obviously. Then I switched to my 4k TV screen and 3840x2160p, connected via HDMI. SSAA is pointless in 4k but I tried it anyway. the NGXu became absolutely unusable, my trackIR movements were a second behind my head, the mouse was so slow that I couldn't control it. This is similar to the 747 but much worse. (FSL320 unflyable too with these settings btw) Then I disabled AA and the 737 worked as fluently as if I sat in a real one. 40FPS+. same with MSAA 2x and 4x. any higher settings are pointless in 4k. There might also be an improvement if I managed the AA settings in the NVIDIA control panel instead of P3D but I haven't tried that out.

                                          maybe someone can work with that.
                                          Hmm you're onto something, I'm gonna start testing this out. MSAA may be the answer then to a semi fix
                                          Alex Kulak
                                          PMDG Studier and flyer

                                          Comment


                                            #82
                                            Originally posted by dimkzr View Post

                                            Just tested this, doesn't work.
                                            For me neither. What I discovered, with my setup (2nd monitor for 3 main flight display undocked panels) in full screen, is that bringing p3d menu with the ALT key, raises 3-4 fps.
                                            Sergio Naiberg

                                            Comment


                                              #83
                                              Originally posted by Ephedrin View Post
                                              for me the FPS are extremely sensitiv to the AA setting, as always when it comes to DL.


                                              edit: also the scaling options in the windows display settings make a BIG difference on my system. 100% is small but fine, 200% lags like hell.
                                              Very interesting. Does scaling make that much of a difference? I run a 43in 4K TV with 150% scaling. My AA settings is usually None or 2XMSAA because I''m on a 4K. I run my setup at 30hz which gives me the best smoothness.

                                              FYI, just came across this post from a LM Core Lead on the P3D forums in response to DPI Scaling;

                                              Yes, Prepar3D will correctly handle scaling values by changing the size of text and menu windows. The resolution of Prepar3D will stay at the correct desktop resolution. In your case setting the scaling value to 150% will cause all text in Prepar3D to scale 1.5x larger and the application will still render in 4k.

                                              Currently Prepar3D does not support different scaling values on multiple displays but this is something we are looking into supporting in a future update. Currently it will use the scaling value set on the main display across all other displays.


                                              Regards,
                                              Rob McCarthy
                                              Last edited by Wise87; 13Nov2019, 15:43.
                                              Dan Moore

                                              Comment


                                              • Ephedrin
                                                Ephedrin commented
                                                Editing a comment
                                                yses your edited part is what I see.. But not even Windows itself can handle that correctly.

                                              #84
                                              Originally posted by Wise87 View Post

                                              Very interesting. Does scaling make that much of a difference? I run a 43in 4K TV with 150% scaling. My AA settings is usually None or 2XMSAA because I''m on a 4K. I run my setup at 30hz which gives me the best smoothness.
                                              I can only talk about my system but it seems yes. I came across this with another game and tried it out in P3D now too. 100% is fine, anything else has a noticable impact. But I have 3 screens anyway with 3 different resolutions, so my setup can probably not be talken into serious consideration lol. But I would try the MSAA/SSAA thing out.
                                              i7-6700k, GTX 1080TI, 32GB DDR4 RAM @2666MHz, 4k

                                              Marc Ehnle

                                              Comment


                                                #85
                                                Found a frame jump.


                                                I decided to go into the nvidia control panel
                                                Changed:
                                                antialiasing - off to on
                                                antialiasing mode- to enhance the application settings
                                                Antialiasing setting- to 4x
                                                Opengl rendering GPU - set to (your main GPU)
                                                power management mode- to prefer maximum performance

                                                In the sim:
                                                I went from SSAA X8 to MSAA X4

                                                Frames jumped form 5-10 to 15-20 (still can feel the loss but a lot more stable frames)

                                                I tested this out at FB KPHX with ALL LIGHTS ON (Aircraft)

                                                Now I tried ORBX San Diego (because that hits my frames the most with DL) and i notice a difference of 5 less frames between the two airport which I am seriously happy with this result.


                                                hardwardware:
                                                I7-7700K @4.25 OC 17%
                                                Nvidia GTX 1080TI
                                                Viper Gaming Ram 16GB DDR4


                                                Addons:
                                                REX EF, REX SKY FORCE 3D
                                                ORBX SAN, PSP, OPEN LC, GLOBAL, VECTOR
                                                APS4, ASCA
                                                FB (All sceneries)
                                                PMDG 737NGX, NGXu, 777
                                                QW 787
                                                Alex Kulak
                                                PMDG Studier and flyer

                                                Comment


                                                  #86
                                                  Originally posted by Swaluver88 View Post
                                                  Found a frame jump.


                                                  I decided to go into the nvidia control panel
                                                  Changed:
                                                  antialiasing - off to on
                                                  antialiasing mode- to enhance the application settings
                                                  Antialiasing setting- to 4x
                                                  Opengl rendering GPU - set to (your main GPU)
                                                  power management mode- to prefer maximum performance

                                                  In the sim:
                                                  I went from SSAA X8 to MSAA X4

                                                  Frames jumped form 5-10 to 15-20 (still can feel the loss but a lot more stable frames)

                                                  I tested this out at FB KPHX with ALL LIGHTS ON (Aircraft)

                                                  Now I tried ORBX San Diego (because that hits my frames the most with DL) and i notice a difference of 5 less frames between the two airport which I am seriously happy with this result.


                                                  hardwardware:
                                                  I7-7700K @4.25 OC 17%
                                                  Nvidia GTX 1080TI
                                                  Viper Gaming Ram 16GB DDR4


                                                  Addons:
                                                  REX EF, REX SKY FORCE 3D
                                                  ORBX SAN, PSP, OPEN LC, GLOBAL, VECTOR
                                                  APS4, ASCA
                                                  FB (All sceneries)
                                                  PMDG 737NGX, NGXu, 777
                                                  QW 787
                                                  I would be interested in what your GPU Load is at night. Try a payware airport. Start with panel back lights and then turn on taxi/landing. Then give one click of VC floods and see if your GPU load jumps.
                                                  Dan Moore

                                                  Comment


                                                    #87
                                                    Originally posted by Wise87 View Post

                                                    I would be interested in what your GPU Load is at night. Try a payware airport. Start with panel back lights and then turn on taxi/landing and what it only rise slightly. Then give one click of VC floods and see if your GPU load jumps.
                                                    This was with payware airport. I'll monitor my GPU load, but as one wants better frames they will have to do something like load your GPU and or having to OC their CPU. Which I understand you're trying to find the best way to perform the sim without loading your GPU and OC your CPU but that may not be able to happen. I'll report back what my GPU load is
                                                    Alex Kulak
                                                    PMDG Studier and flyer

                                                    Comment


                                                      #88
                                                      Originally posted by Swaluver88 View Post

                                                      This was with payware airport. I'll monitor my GPU load, but as one wants better frames they will have to do something like load your GPU and or having to OC their CPU. Which I understand you're trying to find the best way to perform the sim without loading your GPU and OC your CPU but that may not be able to happen. I'll report back what my GPU load is
                                                      I only mention GPU load because your FPS will drop and you will see a performance hit (lack of smoothness) when it maxes out.
                                                      Dan Moore

                                                      Comment


                                                        #89
                                                        Originally posted by Wise87 View Post

                                                        I would be interested in what your GPU Load is at night. Try a payware airport. Start with panel back lights and then turn on taxi/landing. Then give one click of VC floods and see if your GPU load jumps.
                                                        Same scenarios

                                                        GPU load:
                                                        No lights- 61%
                                                        Landing, taxi, turnoff - 80%
                                                        Logo strobe, anti, wing, wheel well- 98%
                                                        dome- 99%

                                                        CPU- 21%
                                                        GPU load average - 75%-100%

                                                        Now take into a fact here and here me out.
                                                        You really only use most of these lights at once for one portion of the flight so you're maxing your GPU load out for 10-25 mins depending on your chosen procedures.

                                                        there is a lot wrong with DL in P3D, but I really dont mind maxing my GPU out as it stabilizes before these changes in mid flight (average of 1.5hr-5.6hr at 60-70%) so the 10-20 min load shouldnt do damage. It's like FSX most of the time our CPUs where overheating but still stable lol

                                                        also getting the same frames as before I took a note of the loads. Noticing zero.frames difference as the last test without looking at the loads
                                                        Alex Kulak
                                                        PMDG Studier and flyer

                                                        Comment


                                                          #90
                                                          It's not GPU load for me. My GPU is fine and this is even with orbx, payware airports, dynamics lighting, etc. My CPU (4.0 GHz) on the other hand seems to be struggling.
                                                          James Ward

                                                          Comment


                                                          • Swaluver88
                                                            Swaluver88 commented
                                                            Editing a comment
                                                            Most likely depends on your system
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