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Dual A/P ILS Landing Problem

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    Dual A/P ILS Landing Problem

    After the recent PMDG upgrade, I have a problem completing Dual A/P ILS landings. For some reason, both A/Ps disconnect when I am just about to touch down.
    Until that point, everything has performed ok with the radios tuned to the ILS frequency.
    I have the Collins radio - does the problem have something to with the “OP FAIL” setting?
    How can I fix the a.m. problem?
    Thank you in advance for any help.
    Claus Jensen
    Last edited by CVJ; 24May2023, 04:17.

    #2
    What annunciations do you have on the FMA? Are you seeing either CMD or LAND 3 on the PFD after descending through 1500' RA?
    Nathan Chetram

    Comment


      #3
      It shows CMD. It has “always” shown that all the way down to the ILS interception altitude.

      The Boeing 737 Flight Crew Operations Manual says (ref screenshot below) that I need this setting:
      “Fail Operational Autoland capability”. How do I set that on a Collins radio???

      Claus Jensen IMG_3287.jpg
      Last edited by CVJ; 24May2023, 17:05.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by CVJ View Post
        It shows CMD. It has “always” shown that all the way down to the ILS interception altitude.
        Claus, name of all posts here.

        Nathan asked what appears on the FMA. The FMA is the top row of the PFD that displays the thrust, roll and pitch modes in use by the AFDS. It tells you what the automation is doing. You expect to see green LOC/VOR and GS during an ILS but if you armed APP wrong you may see FAC/GP which is not what you want to see. Also, under the GS you should see a white FLARE as you approach the runway if you have dual A/P engaged.
        Dan Downs KCRP
        i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 3080Ti

        Comment


          #5
          I found the setting “Fail Op”.

          Testing now. Will advise.

          claus jensen

          Comment


            #6
            I only land with Autoland about once every two years. However, I believe that you have to have the ILS and course setting on both the pilot's and FO's side set to the correct frequency and course as well as both autopilots selected.
            Mark "Crabby" Crabtree AAL311 | PHL
            I7-9700KF | 2070 Super | Honeycomb Alpha/Bravo | MFG Crosswind

            Comment


              #7
              In spite of all the above recommended settings, and a Green “Landing 3”, the A/P s still disconnected right before touchdown.

              Any other suggestions welcome.

              Claus Jensen

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by CVJ View Post
                In spite of all the above recommended settings, and a Green “Landing 3”, the A/P s still disconnected right before touchdown.

                Any other suggestions welcome.

                Claus Jensen
                Please look at your FMA, it is telling you what the automation is doing. What does it say before and after touchdown? Is your approach stabilized below 1000 (speed and rate of descent relatively constant)? We cannnot see your FMA, you have to look and let us know.
                Dan Downs KCRP
                i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 3080Ti

                Comment


                  #9
                  IMG_3296.jpg IMG_3290.png Dan,

                  Here are some screenshots and a You Tube video showing what the FMA is telling me. Just fast forward to the landing.





                  Claus Jensen
                  Last edited by CVJ; 24May2023, 23:35.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I'm sorry Claus, the pictures and video are very blurry. I see the A/P disengage and the aural warning but I cannot see the details of your APPR INIT where Vref is set and it appears the A/T is holding Vref+5 but if Vref is based on the wrong weight it could cause problems. The disconnect appears to happen right at 500 AAL.... the AIII mode is activated as expected.

                    What is that window open in the lower left and what is it supposed to do?
                    Dan Downs KCRP
                    i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 3080Ti

                    Comment


                    • Steve M
                      Steve M commented
                      Editing a comment
                      It's FSFO Dan, an automated FO that can control the systems...
                      I bet anything they are trying to take shortcuts rather than learning the 737's systems, and so getting these type of problems.

                    #11
                    Originally posted by CVJ View Post
                    In spite of all the above recommended settings, and a Green “Landing 3”, the A/P s still disconnected right before touchdown.

                    Any other suggestions welcome.

                    Claus Jensen
                    AT is also turned off around the same time...automatically.
                    Try changing or turning off this option in FSFO!

                    Might be an idea to read documentation that comes with products too.
                    Steve Mel

                    Comment


                    • CVJ
                      CVJ commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Steve,

                      The FSFO documentation is mainly concerned with the installation of the the product and how to communicate with the FO using voice commands. I will look for a setting for the AP.

                    #12
                    You can fly the 737 as PIC without any virtual First Officer helping you out. I always found these automated programs loused everything up and then these sort of issues occur. People are too quick to blame the update.

                    After every update we see threads like this.

                    Flying the 737 single handed is a lot of work, staying ahead of the plane. Running the checklists helps to keep you on the ball. If you try to fly this plane without any structured training or study, you will experience problems, just as you would in the real world.

                    I'm exceptionally lucky, my daughter loves aviation and will assist me on 737 flights, operating gear , flaps, speaking to ATC, operating the MCP and AFDS whilst I concentrate on flying the plane. It really helps to share the workload and make for an enjoyable flight. She also calls the checklists, reads the Jeppesen plates, we have printed out ready and checks fuel usage against our Sim Brief despatch notes, at each waypoint. She can input info into the FDS Pro MX CDU we have and change arrivals and approaches if necessary as well. Get your family involved if you can.
                    Eddie Zetlein, Surrey.

                    Comment


                    • Steve M
                      Steve M commented
                      Editing a comment
                      That sounds really lovely Eddie. 😊

                    • DDowns
                      DDowns commented
                      Editing a comment
                      An amazing father daughter sharing, building memories.

                    #13
                    'The FSFO documentation is mainly concerned with the installation of the the product and how to communicate with the FO using voice commands. I will look for a setting for the AP.'

                    A set up menu from their website which I edited to show the settings that are causing this:

                    FSFO.jpg


                    Steve Mel

                    Comment


                    • CVJ
                      CVJ commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Steve,

                      Thank you very much for helping me solve this.

                      Claus Jensen

                    #14
                    Steve M Just curious, because I would never install a cheat like this, but if the A/P is turned off at 0 AGL isn't that wrong? When landing Fail Op you do not disconnect A/P until ready to turn off the runway because it is providing center line steering guidance in potentially very low visibility conditions. The option should be never disconnect A/P without PF input.
                    Dan Downs KCRP
                    i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 3080Ti

                    Comment


                      #15
                      Originally posted by DDowns View Post
                      Steve M Just curious, because I would never install a cheat like this, but if the A/P is turned off at 0 AGL isn't that wrong? When landing Fail Op you do not disconnect A/P until ready to turn off the runway because it is providing center line steering guidance in potentially very low visibility conditions. The option should be never disconnect A/P without PF input.
                      Hi Dan,
                      As far as I know (after reading some stuff on their forum) setting that to zero is the only way to disable that setting in the current version.
                      Apparently the author is releasing a new version soon V5, so maybe in that it will be more customisable, but I've no idea?

                      My concern is that some users use things like this and forgo the hard work to learn the fundamentals, and so use it to speed things up to get into the air with no real idea what they are doing.
                      Once those fundamental procedures and the reasons for them are locked into the brain then fair enough I guess, I can see where people might want to lessen the load and add an FO.
                      But I wonder how many use things like this early on and then never really learn to fly the plane and to learn its systems, and if turned off would still be able to get it from A to B?
                      In fact depending when and why it is used, instead of helping them, it could actually hinder and simply get in the way of learning the 737's systems.

                      Personally I can imagine using it with all the automation turned off, and just have it for the FO call outs and checklists, that might be nice.
                      But apart from that, no.

                      Edit: Oh, sorry forgot to say.
                      My understanding is that by setting to 0 ft it won't actually turn it off automatically at 0 ft, rather it will be like the setting to do so doesn't exist and is disabled.
                      A clickable disable button would be a far better option though wouldn't it!
                      Last edited by Steve M; 26May2023, 19:02.
                      Steve Mel

                      Comment


                        #16
                        There is a wide spectrum of simmers here. Some want the deep level study others just get in an go. I think this at least allows for the latter. I don’t see as a cheat since you will never fly this single pilot, just a way to make it more realistic. You will never do everything by yourself IRL.

                        Also, there are some airports where you could Autoland but lateral guidance is prohibited on the runway after landing.
                        Last edited by Icaruss; 26May2023, 19:28.
                        Rafael Cordoves

                        Comment


                          #17
                          Not to threadjack, but when I engage both L and R CMD and get below 1500 AGL, I see FLARE but I don't see ROLLOUT. I'm sure I'm missing some step, but what?
                          Steve Kane

                          Comment


                            #18
                            Originally posted by Steve-Kane View Post
                            Not to threadjack, but when I engage both L and R CMD and get below 1500 AGL, I see FLARE but I don't see ROLLOUT. I'm sure I'm missing some step, but what?
                            Answering my own question: PMDG Setup menu in FMC, Aircraft/Equipment - Page 1, set Autoland to "FAIL OP". Just did a smooove autoland at KDEN. I'll still stick mostly to manual landings, though.
                            Steve Kane

                            Comment

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