Engine spool behavior messed up in latest update

[Pilot53]

After the latest update the engine spool timings seem to be broken. It behaves like the default msfs jet engine model now, with the engines spooling up almost instantly when advancing the throttles from idle to 40%. The behavior was never perfect, but it was much closer to the real thing in the past.

[DDowns]

After the latest update the engine spool timings seem to be broken. It behaves like the default msfs jet engine model now, with the engines spooling up almost instantly when advancing the throttles from idle to 40%. The behavior was never perfect, but it was much closer to the real thing in the past.

Please don't double post. You're the only one reporting this, look in-house please.

[bobsk8]

The spool up after the latest update, is the same as it was before the update.

[AirBadger]

OP, ignore the local trolls. I'd put in a ticket because I think I'm seeing the same thing and it wouldn't hurt to ask PMDG directly if they changed anything with engine spool times. I might try downloading the base version from PMDG to roll back and see how they compare.

[Pilot53]

The spool up after the latest update, is the same as it was before the update.

you are incorrect

[Pilot53]

OP, ignore the local trolls. I'd put in a ticket because I think I'm seeing the same thing and it wouldn't hurt to ask PMDG directly if they changed anything with engine spool times. I might try downloading the base version from PMDG to roll back and see how they compare.

Ignored, im used to it by now. ill go ahead and put in a ticket. The ones that haven't noticed a difference are likely the ones who don't know how the real one should behave so they would never notice the difference anyway. Unfortunately this is probably a majority of users.

[Victor Augusto]

You're right, it is much faster now, hope they fix it soon.

[DDowns]

Did some double checking on my own and I agree the spool up to 40%N1 is not right and is also missing the correct EGT behavior. However, I should share that this is a write-up within PMDG from Late 2022, not something new as a result of the recent update.

I'm not discouraging any user, even those that like to troll me, from submitting a support ticket for issues that are deemed worth looking at. Don't expect the development cycle to be impacted for this.

See also https://forum.pmdg.com/forum/main-fo...cs-for-the-ngx

[seatbackpocket]

21.1% N1 to 103.2% N1 (pre-update) was 5.7 seconds
21.1% N1 to 103.2% N1 (post-update) was 5.2 seconds

Did three takes and then a frame-by-frame time stamp comparison.

[Victor Augusto]

21.1% N1 to 103.2% N1 (pre-update) was 5.7 seconds
21.1% N1 to 103.2% N1 (post-update) was 5.2 seconds

Did three takes and then a frame-by-frame time stamp comparison.

I did the comparison too, but the OP mentioned idle to 40 percent, not idle to full.
and it is much faster now, about 3 seconds, when it used to take 7.

[seatbackpocket]

Indeed, I just commented that idle to full has changed between the previous and current update. I only observed about .2 seconds difference between 21.1% to 40% N1. The rest of the lost .5 was at the top of the N1 power band. I haven't rolled back to any older updates as I've never observed the 7 second spool up time to 40%

[Pilot53]

Did some double checking on my own and I agree the spool up to 40%N1 is not right and is also missing the correct EGT behavior. However, I should share that this is a write-up within PMDG from Late 2022, not something new as a result of the recent update.

I'm not discouraging any user, even those that like to troll me, from submitting a support ticket for issues that are deemed worth looking at. Don't expect the development cycle to be impacted for this.

See also https://forum.pmdg.com/forum/main-fo...cs-for-the-ngx

That was my post from a while back, I guess due to sim limitations and something to do with xbox compatibility they are not able to get it quite right. I think where we had it before this update was an ok compromise, but now its just very noticeably wrong.

[Victor Augusto]

That was my post from a while back, I guess due to sim limitations and something to do with xbox compatibility they are not able to get it quite right. I think where we had it before this update was an ok compromise, but now its just very noticeably wrong.

Well, You might want to roll back to 3.0065, at least for me, this new version doesnt have many advantages over the previous one, and has this blaringly obvious bug.
Let's just hope PMDG sorts this out next update.

[Pilot53]

Well, You might want to roll back to 3.0065, at least for me, this new version doesnt have many advantages over the previous one, and has this blaringly obvious bug.
Let's just hope PMDG sorts this out next update.

I didnt know you could roll back updates

[Victor Augusto]

I didnt know you could roll back updates

Yes, PMDG operations center saves a back up of your previous versions, which you can then just copy and replace into your community folder.

By taking a look into the newly downloaded files of version 3.0069 I found what they changed that changed the engine spool up times.
In the Engines.cfg they changed the SPOOL UP times, I don't know why they did it, but my guess it has something to do with this:
0011971: [General - Engines] Handling MSFS inbuilt model for in flight engine restart at high altitudes (emvaos)

Either way, for anyone who is bothered by this, you can still use version 3.0069 and retain the old engine behavior, all you have to do is replace Engines.cfg file found in your:
Users\YOURUSERNAME\AppData\Roaming\PMDG\PMDG Operations Center\Updater\PMDG 737-X00\MSFS\Backup\SimObjects\Airplanes\PMDG 737-X00
for the engines.cfg found in community folder.
Community\pmdg-aircraft-73X\SimObjects\Airplanes\PMDG 737-XXX

Just keep in mind that PMDG probably had a good reason to change these values, so go back at your own risk.
happy flights.

[JonSleeper]

The spool up is much faster as OP said.

[cmakris]

All,

We are aware of this and are investigating.

[Emi]

Welcome to the world of MSFS. Engine spool times are grossly incorrect either way, before and after the update.
The MSFS engine simply makes it impossible to get those right as spool time is bound to the thrust lever deflection.
If your engine is at IDLE and you put the thrust lever to 100% it will react much quicker than if your engine is at IDLE and you put your thrust lever to 40% N1.
With MSFS affecting your engine spooltime like this it's impossible to get the engines accurate.
Needless to say that in the real plane thrust lever displacement doesn't affect the engines spooltime.

And to make things even better, now imagine what would happen if PMDG simply "faked" the indications to match the real plane, which is what some other devs are trying.
MSFS ties the sounds to its internal engine power. So if you "fake" the engine display the sounds will get totally off.
This is why the Maddogs engine sounds don't match their instrument indications.
And of course your airplanes behaviour would no longer match the engine indications. Imagine if you slammed your thrust lever full forward and got an immediate response from your airplane while your N1 indication would still be at 30-40%. This is about the difference we're talking here.
And obviously any user using third party tools to access engine data would get the incorrect MSFS internal data and then report bugs due to mismatches.

[bobsk8]

you are incorrect

No, you are incorrect, what I said was "The spool up after the latest update, is the same as it was before the update", which EMI ( who actually pilots a 737 for an airline, rather than being some pretend expert pilot on a forum) agrees in his post.

[Victor Augusto]

It is not the same, I mean, come on dude, multiple people have reported this, CMAkris said they are aware and investigating, emi didn't say it was the same, just that it was wrong before and is wrong now, then he went and explained the limitations that exist.
Anyone can open up their sim, time the time it takes from idle to 40n1, and go to the previous version and time again, compare, it takes less than half the time now.

[Pilot53]

No, you are incorrect, what I said was "The spool up after the latest update, is the same as it was before the update", which EMI ( who actually pilots a 737 for an airline, rather than being some pretend expert pilot on a forum) agrees in his post.

Hey werent you the guy on avsim arguing that there was nothing wrong with the fenix a320 when it was first released? Then like a week later the developers released a patch addressing almost everything you said was not an issue? I guess its a pattern with you. Glad to see you've blessed us with your presence on the pmdg forum too now. Chris Makris literally just said that they are aware of the issue and looking into it. And how you do you know what my backround is? I think you're the pretend expert pilot since you have a habit of spouting incorrect information which you present as fact. Get lost troll.

[Pilot53]

Welcome to the world of MSFS. Engine spool times are grossly incorrect either way, before and after the update.
The MSFS engine simply makes it impossible to get those right as spool time is bound to the thrust lever deflection.
If your engine is at IDLE and you put the thrust lever to 100% it will react much quicker than if your engine is at IDLE and you put your thrust lever to 40% N1.
With MSFS affecting your engine spooltime like this it's impossible to get the engines accurate.
Needless to say that in the real plane thrust lever displacement doesn't affect the engines spooltime.

And to make things even better, now imagine what would happen if PMDG simply "faked" the indications to match the real plane, which is what some other devs are trying.
MSFS ties the sounds to its internal engine power. So if you "fake" the engine display the sounds will get totally off.
This is why the Maddogs engine sounds don't match their instrument indications.
And of course your airplanes behaviour would no longer match the engine indications. Imagine if you slammed your thrust lever full forward and got an immediate response from your airplane while your N1 indication would still be at 30-40%. This is about the difference we're talking here.
And obviously any user using third party tools to access engine data would get the incorrect MSFS internal data and then report bugs due to mismatches.

I wish this was something we could get asobo to fix. Its been like this since fsx, their turbine engine model is completely flawed. I guess the only way to simulate it correctly right now is with an external engine model like fenix is working on.

[bobsk8]

Hey werent you the guy on avsim arguing that there was nothing wrong with the fenix a320 when it was first released? Then like a week later the developers released a patch addressing almost everything you said was not an issue? I guess its a pattern with you. Glad to see you've blessed us with your presence on the pmdg forum too now. Chris Makris literally just said that they are aware of the issue and looking into it. And how you do you know what my backround is? I think you're the pretend expert pilot since you have a habit of spouting incorrect information which you present as fact. Get lost troll.

You ignored my statement, and still do. I will say it again, because obviously, you can't understand what you read. I stated that the spool up before and after the latest update had not changed. . I did not say it was correct. Can you understand that?

[Pilot53]

You ignored my statement, and still do. I will say it again, because obviously, you can't understand what you read. I stated that the spool up before and after the latest update had not changed. . I did not say it was correct. Can you understand that?

Wrong again Bob, you are the one who who cant understand what you read it seems. But continue throwing insults my way, it just makes you look even more ridiculous. There have been several people in this thread besides myself that have stated that the spool up has changed in this update. Chris from the PMDG support team has stated that pmdg are aware of this and looking into it. What more do you need??? Im going to stop replying to you now because I don't want to derail this thread any further.

[DDowns]

Mike, be nice.

[bobsk8]

Wrong again Bob, you are the one who who cant understand what you read it seems. But continue throwing insults my way, it just makes you look even more ridiculous. There have been several people in this thread besides myself that have stated that the spool up has changed in this update. Chris from the PMDG support team has stated that pmdg are aware of this and looking into it. What more do you need??? Im going to stop replying to you now because I don't want to derail this thread any further.

This is what DDowns said in the post above. :

Did some double checking on my own and I agree the spool up to 40%N1 is not right and is also missing the correct EGT behavior. However, I should share that this is a write-up within PMDG from Late 2022, not something new as a result of the recent update.

Which is exactly what I said.

[DDowns]

This is what DDowns said in the post above. :

Did some double checking on my own and I agree the spool up to 40%N1 is not right and is also missing the correct EGT behavior. However, I should share that this is a write-up within PMDG from Late 2022, not something new as a result of the recent update.

Take a break Bob. Yes, the write-up was from late 2022 but I did not measure spool up time before and after update. The post from Chris could be inferred to mean that there was an unexpected change in behavior. PMDG is on it....

[seatbackpocket]

Clean install of the previous update.

9.95 seconds from 21.1 to 40.1% N1

Clean install with current update

3.48 seconds from 21.1 to 40.1% N1

Unsure why my other data was so incorrect, clearly not a clean install on my end.

It's unfortunate that some forum regulars are unable to just look at actual data from the sim. You don't need to be type-rated to see that a variable that is presented in the sim has changed. Whether it's right or wrong, we're compare Apples (Update X from PMDG) to Apples (Update Y from PMDG). Not Apples (MSFS) to Oranges (a real 737).

Why do people chime in without first checking or validating things I'll never know. At least present some sort of data point.

[WebMaximus]

Was just about to report the same thing but realizing I'm late to the party.

Good to see how you're already on it and I'm looking forward to the fix.

[Mike.cbr]

Yes, PMDG operations center saves a back up of your previous versions, which you can then just copy and replace into your community folder.

By taking a look into the newly downloaded files of version 3.0069 I found what they changed that changed the engine spool up times.
In the Engines.cfg they changed the SPOOL UP times, I don't know why they did it, but my guess it has something to do with this:
0011971: [General - Engines] Handling MSFS inbuilt model for in flight engine restart at high altitudes (emvaos)

Either way, for anyone who is bothered by this, you can still use version 3.0069 and retain the old engine behavior, all you have to do is replace Engines.cfg file found in your:
Users\YOURUSERNAME\AppData\Roaming\PMDG\PMDG Operations Center\Updater\PMDG 737-X00\MSFS\Backup\SimObjects\Airplanes\PMDG 737-X00
for the engines.cfg found in community folder.
Community\pmdg-aircraft-73X\SimObjects\Airplanes\PMDG 737-XXX

Just keep in mind that PMDG probably had a good reason to change these values, so go back at your own risk.
happy flights.

Hi I don’t want to high jack this post…. But since there is another problems with latest update .69 how can I find previous versions on my PMDG op center ? Where is it saved ? Sorry and
Thanks

[Victor Augusto]

Hi.
copy all the files from this folder:
C:\Users\USERNAME\AppData\Roaming\PMDG\PMDG Operations Center\Updater\PMDG 737-X00\MSFS\Backup
paste and replace on:
Microsoft Flight Simulator\Community\pmdg-aircraft-73X
And you'll be back in 3.0065

[mmoja]

After the latest update the engine spool timings seem to be broken. It behaves like the default msfs jet engine model now, with the engines spooling up almost instantly when advancing the throttles from idle to 40%. The behavior was never perfect, but it was much closer to the real thing in the past.

I just bought the aircraft yesterday but I also noticed that the spool up seemed quite fast

[Yosm]

You're right, it is much faster now, hope they fix it soon.

Yeah I noticed the same the spool up time is lightning fast after the last update...

[jmarauder04]

There are clearly many issues after this update. I too have noticed this issue as well as the handling characteristics of the jet. Feels like a c172 more than a "heavier" swept wing jet. Maybe some of the x-box stuff was accidentally put into the pc version? idk im not a computer genius. But I can say feels like the product line went 2 steps backwards.

Justin Michaels