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Landing at Vref after disconnecting the AP at 200' agl for an ILS approach...

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    Landing at Vref after disconnecting the AP at 200' agl for an ILS approach...

    I find if I disconnect the AP at 200' and retain the descent path and maintain Vref I'm somewhere around 100' at the runway threshold which generate landing rates that are higher than I'm after, which is not > 300'/min. I wouldn't know this except for A Pilot's Life scoring routine will penalize me accordingly. I think it was Dan Downs who mentioned I should be at 50 feet at the start of runway threshold which seems like a much better way to grease this landing (yes, I know greased landings aren't always a good idea, but APL likes them so that is what I try to do!). What's a good systematic way to do this consistently?
    ๐Ÿ˜ถ N o e l ๐Ÿค” P h a r e s ๐Ÿ˜Ž

    #2
    According to the gospel according to St Boeing speed control during the flare and touchdown is:

    'Minimum command speed setting is VREF + 5 knots. With proper flare technique and thrust management the 5 knot additive and some of the steady wind additive may be bled off prior to touchdown. Plan to maintain gust correction until touchdown. Touchdown should occur at no less than VREF - 5 knots'

    This works both in real life and in the sim (company and MSFS) from which greasers are eminently possible if that is your thing.

    Rex
    โ€‹

    Comment


      #3
      The ideal height to cross the threshold of the runway (note, this may not be the actual beginning of the pavement and it is when the aircraft is physically above the threshold, not when you can no longer see it in the windshield) is generally 50 feet. However, this may not be true of all runways, or all situations. Most ILS glideslopes are set to a 3ยฐ slope and will generally have you cross the threshold at around 50 feet. However, that does not guarantee that you will have a good landing. The most important part of the landing, the touchdown, is entirely up to you. Crossing the threshold on speed and on the glideslope will put you in a good position for a good landing, but the final bit is all you.

      Also, don't worry so much about the rate of descent at touchdown. I know that A Pilot's Life uses this metric, and it is one of the issues that I have with the program since it encourages sim pilots to think that the rate of descent at touchdown is important. Real pilots typically don't concern themselves with the rate of descent at touchdown. They are more concerned about the G forces experienced by the aircraft (and passengers!) at touchdown. Those two things are similar, but not quite the same.
      Tim Lincoln
      My YouTube Channel

      Comment


        #4
        In addition to what others have said, if you look at the ILS approach plate it provides the height above threshold when you are on the proper glide path. For example KSEA ILS 16C TCH 55'. There is also TDZE 430' which is the elevation of the touchdown zone on that runway. If you are double that above runway then something is wrong with your procedure after A/P disconnect.

        Perhaps your problem is the trim. The A/P will add a little bit of nose up trim at about 400 ft AAL (from memory, could be less) so if you are disconnecting A/P at 200 ft then you will have to add nose down trim to maintain your glide path; otherwise your rate of descent will decrease and you will be high over the threshold.

        Dan Downs KCRP
        i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 3080Ti

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by NoelCP View Post
          I find if I disconnect the AP at 200' and retain the descent path and maintain Vref I'm somewhere around 100' at the runway threshold which generate landing rates that are higher than I'm after, which is not > 300'/min. I wouldn't know this except for A Pilot's Life scoring routine will penalize me accordingly. I think it was Dan Downs who mentioned I should be at 50 feet at the start of runway threshold which seems like a much better way to grease this landing (yes, I know greased landings aren't always a good idea, but APL likes them so that is what I try to do!). What's a good systematic way to do this consistently?
          I would highly recommend just ignoring the scoring routine when it comes to the landing rate aspect. It is extremely poor piloting technique to deliberately try and grease a landing. I once heard a new hire pilot at a major airline was let go from training due to his obsession with trying to land as smoothly as possible. Not sure if the story is true but even if it was fabricated it's probably told for a reason...

          As for your actual question, try disconnecting the autopilot earlier and focus on the touchdown point. At 50 feet make sure to transition your eyes to look at the far end of the runway. Do not look inside the cockpit for any reason at this point. I've also found that the earlier I disconnect the autopilot/autothrottle the better my landings actually are. Disconnecting earlier will give you more time to observe if the touchdown point is moving up or down on your windshield and get a feel for the corrections you need to make. I consistently nail landings right on the aim point, on centerline, at VREF, and within structural limitations of the aircraft when I have the autopilot/autothrottle disconnected prior to even turning final.
          James Ward

          Comment


            #6
            Does APL penalize me if I land outside the landing zone? If not, just hold off the landing until you're a couple of thousand feet down the runway and grease it on. Lousy real world technique, but it gets the job done the way APL wants it. If APL does penalize long landings, you just need to take over earlier and dip below the glideslope, so you're lower over the threshold, etc. Again poor technique IRL, but it's just a game.
            John Wiesenfeld - KPBI
            PPL/IFR, VATSIM C1 (ZNY)

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by jrw4 View Post
              Does APL penalize me if I land outside the landing zone? If not, just hold off the landing until you're a couple of thousand feet down the runway and grease it on. Lousy real world technique, but it gets the job done the way APL wants it. If APL does penalize long landings, you just need to take over earlier and dip below the glideslope, so you're lower over the threshold, etc. Again poor technique IRL, but it's just a game.
              Better yet, drop the game and learn to fly the airplane properly. You will get a lot of satisfaction from completing a flight from preflight to shutdown without an error.... just doing that is a heck of a challenge.
              Dan Downs KCRP
              i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 3080Ti

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by NoelCP View Post
                What's a good systematic way to do this consistently?
                Throw those silly Microsoft ILS's out of the window and fly the plane down manually. I find the ILS to be really bad in MSFS on short finals, the GS never gets you where a real one would get you.
                When you're on GS in real life it'll bring you to a perfect spot to allow for a small flare and a smooth touchdown on the markers. Not so in MSFS, it can literally bring you anywhere....

                Comment


                • DDowns
                  DDowns commented
                  Editing a comment
                  You may need the ILS, as bad as it is in MSFS, to let down IMC. However, I also ignore the GS once I'm visual and I use the position of the captain bars (fixed distance marker) as my reference point. Not all PAPI or visual landing systems are calibrated to coincide with the ILS so I don't rely too much on those.

                #9
                Thanks Dan, that pretty much 'splains' it!
                ๐Ÿ˜ถ N o e l ๐Ÿค” P h a r e s ๐Ÿ˜Ž

                Comment


                  #10
                  Originally posted by Want2BFlyin View Post
                  The ideal height to cross the threshold of the runway (note, this may not be the actual beginning of the pavement and it is when the aircraft is physically above the threshold, not when you can no longer see it in the windshield) is generally 50 feet. However, this may not be true of all runways, or all situations. Most ILS glideslopes are set to a 3ยฐ slope and will generally have you cross the threshold at around 50 feet. However, that does not guarantee that you will have a good landing. The most important part of the landing, the touchdown, is entirely up to you. Crossing the threshold on speed and on the glideslope will put you in a good position for a good landing, but the final bit is all you.

                  Also, don't worry so much about the rate of descent at touchdown. I know that A Pilot's Life uses this metric, and it is one of the issues that I have with the program since it encourages sim pilots to think that the rate of descent at touchdown is important. Real pilots typically don't concern themselves with the rate of descent at touchdown. They are more concerned about the G forces experienced by the aircraft (and passengers!) at touchdown. Those two things are similar, but not quite the same.
                  They do use G-forces and rate of decent according to the user manual overview of scoring.
                  ๐Ÿ˜ถ N o e l ๐Ÿค” P h a r e s ๐Ÿ˜Ž

                  Comment


                  • HighFlier
                    HighFlier commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Out of curiosity, as I come from an engineering background, how is APL calculating G-Force? It would need the technical data on the shock strut for every landing gear on every airliner in existence. It would also need runway slope information. I suppose it could use a "one size fits all" generic shock strut but it wouldn't be very accurate.

                  #11
                  Originally posted by HighFlier View Post

                  I would highly recommend just ignoring the scoring routine when it comes to the landing rate aspect. It is extremely poor piloting technique to deliberately try and grease a landing. I once heard a new hire pilot at a major airline was let go from training due to his obsession with trying to land as smoothly as possible. Not sure if the story is true but even if it was fabricated it's probably told for a reason...

                  As for your actual question, try disconnecting the autopilot earlier and focus on the touchdown point. At 50 feet make sure to transition your eyes to look at the far end of the runway. Do not look inside the cockpit for any reason at this point. I've also found that the earlier I disconnect the autopilot/autothrottle the better my landings actually are. Disconnecting earlier will give you more time to observe if the touchdown point is moving up or down on your windshield and get a feel for the corrections you need to make. I consistently nail landings right on the aim point, on centerline, at VREF, and within structural limitations of the aircraft when I have the autopilot/autothrottle disconnected prior to even turning final.
                  I'll never be a real captain, and scoring is important enough to continue to seek it, and it is very doable. I've been disconnecting earlier and am coming in lower now which makes scoring very doable, even if not something to obsess over in the RW. Thanks
                  ๐Ÿ˜ถ N o e l ๐Ÿค” P h a r e s ๐Ÿ˜Ž

                  Comment


                    #12
                    Originally posted by NoelCP View Post

                    I'll never be a real captain, and scoring is important enough to continue to seek it, and it is very doable. I've been disconnecting earlier and am coming in lower now which makes scoring very doable, even if not something to obsess over in the RW. Thanks
                    Whatever floats your boat. Glad to hear you're more satisfied with your landings now.
                    James Ward

                    Comment


                      #13
                      My brief take summarizes what others have said. You do not mention your flare, which is an important element in slowing descent and dropping speed at the end of the glidepath. I agree with others that disengaging the AP at 500 or even higher might provide you a bit more time to set up for the landing. However, as others have mentioned, the MSFS ILS is a fickle beast and does not work for me much of the time. That said, if you at 200 ft and still on track - it's working!

                      Brian Price

                      Comment


                        #14
                        ILS works fine for me most of the time. I can recall only two times I havenโ€™t gotten the plane to capture the glide slope in a PMDG aircraft: first, I once armed the APP mode before localizer capture - the LOC captured immediately but I didnโ€™t ever get the GS. When it was clear it wasnโ€™t going to capture, I turned off the AP and flew the rest of the approach manually. The second time it happened was a couple weeks ago coming into RWY26L in KLAS. I think that issue came down to pilot error. The downwind leg was pretty strong (around 30 knots) and the plane was very high on profile as I started turning base. I realized after I captured the localizer on final that I was over 1,000โ€™ high. I ended configuring the plane early to increase drag and increase descent rate. By the time I was back on profile I was only a few miles out and would have been disabling the AP about there anyway. Again I made a normal landing manually. At least in this case, I know it was pilot error in not dealing with the tailwind on the base leg more effectively. Iโ€™ve made that same ILS numerous times in the sim without a problem before.
                        Herb Schaltegger - Father, husband, lawyer, engineer & getting too old for this $#!t. Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball!TM.

                        Comment


                          #15
                          Originally posted by NoelCP View Post
                          I find if I disconnect the AP at 200' and retain the descent path and maintain Vref I'm somewhere around 100' at the runway threshold which generate landing rates that are higher than I'm after, which is not > 300'/min. I wouldn't know this except for A Pilot's Life scoring routine will penalize me accordingly.
                          i have had similar issues with this with neofly which is another career simulator package. i'm not using the pmdg for that (mainly bush flying in the kodiak) but they have a similar restriction if you are carrying fragile cargo anything more than 200fpm will break the cargo on landing. i appreciate that they are trying to encourage gentle landings but the number of 200 is completely arbitrary and unrealistic. if you drop a phone from 2 feet off the ground it is traveling at 680fpm when it hits. yet i don't think any properly packaged cell phone will break from that height, i have dropped mine from 3-4 feet several times without any protection at all other than a basic case and it survived easily. to get a speed of 200fpm you are talking about dropping it from 2 inches lol. i could see that being so fragile for glass sculptures or things that aren't packaged i guess haha. for your instance a 300 foot speed is a drop height of 4.6 inches!

                          cheers,-andy crosby

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