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Autoland - 2nd AP button not engaging

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    Autoland - 2nd AP button not engaging

    This has nothing to do with SU10 as I have been having this issue for a while. I am certain it is something I am doing wrong.

    I'm on base about to intercept the ILS. Below the glideslope.
    AP 1 is engaged and following the heading to intercept.
    Both NAVs are set.
    Both Course set.
    FMC is set with flaps and landing speed.
    Spoilers armed

    Before intercept, I press APP which lights up. Then I press the 2nd AP and it lights up but the first one disengages, and the AP error light comes on. I press the first one and the 2nd one disengages. This continues in a back and forth, and there is nothing I can do to get that 2nd one lit.

    Is it a timing issue as I recall Emi saying that "this was the only time you can do it". But he was on base as I am.
    Is there anything I am missing? Sometimes it does work but many times it does not. My procedure is the same

    For reference, this last attempt was at KBDL on ILS RW24

    Jeff Cupido

    #2
    First check your FMA where you should see after arming APPR is LOC and G/S in small white letters. If you see FAC and G/P then you armed IAN and you will not be flying the ILS.

    The dual A/P shouldn't be activated too early, I don't recall the exact numbers but I wait until about 1700 AAL and I think it can be delayed until 1200 AAL but I'm not sure. Yes, if you press the second A/P CMD button too early you only switch from one to the other. Wait until you are tracking both LOC/GS and are inbound inside the FAF.
    Dan Downs KCRP
    i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 3080Ti

    Comment


      #3
      Made a test flight last night from KSAN to KSFO using SU10 and was able to get both APs to light up. I did have to get within about 5 nm of KSFO before the second AP would come on.
      James H. Kaye

      Comment


      • DDowns
        DDowns commented
        Editing a comment
        That's about right, 5 nm on 3 deg GS puts you about 1600 ft above touchdown. Pretty much what I wrote earlier.

      #4
      I didn't try below 1600 AGL. I'll give it a whirl, but I could have sworn I had seen Autoland videos that were enabled while on base to intercept ILS. That has to be way above 1600. Possible bug?
      Jeff Cupido

      Comment


        #5
        Did a little snooping around and found this entry from Emi in 2019 with a similar question. So it's not altitude, it's waiting for that green or white GS. Every airport might be different in terms of when you come into range for it so that's why I am lucky at one and not another. I guess I need to wait until a few miles out and then engage.


        "You either press the APP button too early (no GS in range yet) or your scenery does not have an ILS on the tuned frequency.
        In real life we only press the APP button some few miles out of the FAP to avoid certain issues which can happen at longer range. Prior to that we fly it in with LNAV/VNAV if we're cleared for the ILS a long way out.

        Apart from that, all you need for an autoland is the correct frequency on both sides, correct course on both sides and you MUST engage the second autopilot before 800RA.
        By 350ftRA FLARE has to be armed (should happen automatically if the above steps have been followed correctly but better watch it darn close!).
        Well, the rest is in the FCOM.
        Jeff Cupido

        Comment


          #6
          Originally posted by jcoops View Post
          Did a little snooping around and found this entry from Emi in 2019 with a similar question. So it's not altitude, it's waiting for that green or white GS. Every airport might be different in terms of when you come into range for it so that's why I am lucky at one and not another. I guess I need to wait until a few miles out and then engage.


          "You either press the APP button too early (no GS in range yet) or your scenery does not have an ILS on the tuned frequency.
          In real life we only press the APP button some few miles out of the FAP to avoid certain issues which can happen at longer range. Prior to that we fly it in with LNAV/VNAV if we're cleared for the ILS a long way out.

          Apart from that, all you need for an autoland is the correct frequency on both sides, correct course on both sides and you MUST engage the second autopilot before 800RA.
          By 350ftRA FLARE has to be armed (should happen automatically if the above steps have been followed correctly but better watch it darn close!).
          Well, the rest is in the FCOM.
          You are confusing two different things Jeff. We have been discussing activating both A/P for ILS approach, your quote is specifically about when to arm APPR mode. Two different things.

          In my post # 2 I guessed that both A/P cannot be activated until below 1700 ft AAL (I haven't verified that yet with the FCOM), and you replied you were able to activate both A/P at about 5 nm from touchdown. My reply in the comment simply confirmed that yes, my guess was about right because at 5 nm you are about 1600 ft AAL. I have no idea why you then said you haven't tried below 1600 yet.... where are you going with that? I previously said I think the dual A/P activation should occur before 1200 ft AAL. Are you going to test my guess?
          Dan Downs KCRP
          i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 3080Ti

          Comment


          • Kevin Hall
            Kevin Hall commented
            Editing a comment
            You can select the second AP before that, it remains single channel until the logic is satisfied. I watch for localiser indications to ensure I don't select APP too early and get an IAN approach.

          • jcoops
            jcoops commented
            Editing a comment
            What is an IAN approach. This is what I am probably engaging and why I can't do an autoland. It seems I don't see those diamonds until I hit APP but then if I hit APP before I see the diamonds I can't Autoland. Not sure what comes first the horse or the carriage.

          #7
          jcoops Google is your friend: https://www.boeing.com/commercial/ae...ach_story.html

          Horse before carriage but in this case the horse looks like white diamonds that appear on the horizontal and vertical deviation scales. If there is no white diamond, you are not yet receiving the LOC/GS. It is normal to receive LOC before GS, but you need both before you arm APP otherwise you activate the IAN mode. If you only have LOC then you can arm VOR/LOC and wait for the GS white diamond to appear before pressing the APP button.
          Dan Downs KCRP
          i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 3080Ti

          Comment


          • jcoops
            jcoops commented
            Editing a comment
            What happens if you already intercept the GS or LOC with APP engaged and then hit the 2nd AP button?

          • DDowns
            DDowns commented
            Editing a comment
            jcoops Second A/P is usually activated after both LOC/GS are captured. This is not complicated, keep it simple.

          #8
          Not all airports have autoland in the real world. I wonder if Asobo allows autoland at all airports with a working ILS or only if they are CAT qualified.
          Andrew Hogue
          Battle Creek, MI
          Age 53

          Comment


            #9
            Originally posted by ghs22 View Post
            Not all airports have autoland in the real world. I wonder if Asobo allows autoland at all airports with a working ILS or only if they are CAT qualified.
            The automation in the aircraft only is aware of the ILS. It doesn't care if it is a CAT I or a CAT IIIb. Asobo has nothing to do with this.
            Dan Downs KCRP
            i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 3080Ti

            Comment

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