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ARC DME approaches

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    ARC DME approaches

    Hello, new poster here.

    My question is rather simple: does PMDG's FMS allow for ARC DME approaches ?

    I am trying to program an approach that involves an ARC DME up to the IF (called EKMEP) at LFLL for Rnw 17L coming from the South.
    The FMS is giving me a "vector" that goes from the IAF... all the way to the North pole lol, and is not connected to the IF.
    Am I doing something wrong or ?...

    Below screenshots.

    LFLL.jpg



    ND.jpg

    - Jon Loblaw
    Attached Files
    --------------------------------
    Jon Loblaw

    #2
    Jon, at the present time, not quite. As far as I know, it can only be done with pseudo-waypoints added in.
    Captain Kevin

    Kevin Yang

    Comment


      #3
      Arghh shoot. Ok.
      Is it actually possible to create pseudo-waypoints ? I have a number of pdf in my PMDG folder and I did have a look at them, but none include a tutorial on this:
      PMDG_737_Mouse_Options_HowTo
      PMDG_737_MSFS_Introduction
      PMDG_737_MSFS_Tutorial
      PMDG_737_Paint_Kit_HowTo

      Are there other pdf elsewhere ?
      --------------------------------
      Jon Loblaw

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by jrkob2 View Post
        Arghh shoot. Ok.
        Is it actually possible to create pseudo-waypoints ?
        The format for the pseudo-waypoints is FIXRAD/DIS where FIX is the reference point (in this case the LSE VOR for the arc), RAD is the radial relative to the point and DIS is the distance.
        In your case, the initial point for the DME arc would be LSE297/11.

        EDIT: RAD is a three-digits format, therefore if you begin the approach from the other side, the first pseudo-waypoint would be LSE065/11
        Last edited by Mirach; 22Jun2022, 08:27.

        Marco Colonna

        Comment


          #5
          Jon,

          you could create place-bearing/distance into your route, that would loosely follow the VOR arc (e.g.: LSE240/10, LSE297/11, LSE301/11, LSE305/11, LSE310/11, LSE320/11/ ... LSE 345/11), and make that a constraint at the new waypoints (as per the chart, e.g. /FL100, /FL070, etc.). More waypoints you create the more precise the arc is.

          Also, additionally, you can use FIX page LSE VOR at 11NM that would and make sure that you follow the arc.

          I tested this on a different sim but the place-bearing/distance works on B737. BTW, it works flawlessly (see screenshot)



          Hope this helps.

          Best,

          EDIT: Post above states the same.
          Last edited by fatman744; 22Jun2022, 11:03.
          Andrej Lippay

          Comment


            #6
            Haaaaa, ok got the trick, very smart. Thanks fellas ! See below what will probably do for now.
            Would be nice to have this pre-modelled in the FMS at some point.

            - Jon Loblaw


            LFLL2.jpg
            --------------------------------
            Jon Loblaw

            Comment


              #7
              Jon,

              glad to hear that our suggestion helped.

              if you want to challenge yourself, you can also try flying the arc "old school" way. Tune on LSE, and at the 297 radial at 11NM try to remain at this distance, while approaching the EKMEP fix. Essentially you will make a right turn, while remaining at 11 NM from LSE until you are at the 345 radial at 11NM and then you fly direct to EKMEP.

              I found this video on YT (starting when FD2S initially discusses the approach). It is on B732, but same technique applies.
              Maybe Emanuel ( "737NG Driver" ) could do a video on it.



              Cheers,
              Andrej Lippay

              Comment


                #8


                It would be nice to be able to save/create that as a custom procedure, similar to COPTER proprietary procedures to hospitals, or point-in-space approaches.
                Mike Murphy

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Helibrewer View Post

                  It would be nice to be able to save/create that as a custom procedure, similar to COPTER proprietary procedures to hospitals, or point-in-space approaches.
                  One may modify the sidstar file if you have the time to learn the syntax. LFLL.txt would be that filename in this case and these files are found in <community> \pmdg-aircraft-737\Config\SidStars folder.

                  Google may reveal the document I used to learn the syntax, Making 737NG Procedures by Terry Yingling dated 2004 (PMDG is using a very old navdata format). Before Stephan joined Navigraph many years ago a lot of people were creating their own sidstar files. It's lengthy process to say the least.

                  Dan Downs KCRP
                  i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 3080Ti

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I'll second what Dan said. It's fun and really not that hard, just a little tedious, when you get it figured out. And then you have a procedure you can call up in the FMC any time, without having to add points every time you fly it (just keep a backup copy somewhere outside the SIDSTARS folder, as you'll need to replace it in there after a navdata update.

                    What I do is build the procedure in Google earth. I start with the coords of known waypoints (they're in LFLL.txt in the SIDSTARS folder), and then use the circle tool to create the arc segment I want, and then place multiple fixes along that arc, read their coords from Google earth, and define them in the navdata file below the other waypoints for that airport. Then just create a new approach procedure copying the syntax of the other approaches.
                    Andrew Crowley

                    Comment


                    • DDowns
                      DDowns commented
                      Editing a comment
                      At locations within FAA jurisdiction, all of those waypoint locations are available free from their NFDC web site. They even have the ARINC 424-16 data available if you want to grab the accurate definitions for RF legs. Re: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flig...nav/aero_data/

                    • Stearmandriver
                      Stearmandriver commented
                      Editing a comment
                      DDowns nice resource, thanks!

                    • Stearmandriver
                      Stearmandriver commented
                      Editing a comment
                      And it has all our non-public fixes in it! REALLY nice! I no longer have to pull coords out of the box at work haha!

                    #11
                    when i look at the charts for that approach in navigraph, it doesn't indicate a vor/dme arc as part of the procedure..unless i am reading it incorrectly, after vne it is basically saying maintain course until radar vectors, which looks pretty much like what the FMS is displaying... am i missing something here?

                    edit: ah, looks like your charts are from 2019

                    cheers,-andy crosby
                    Last edited by spesimen; 22Jun2022, 23:44.

                    Comment


                      #12
                      Originally posted by spesimen View Post

                      edit: ah, looks like your charts are from 2019
                      My set of charts is from the latest AIPs on the official French civil aviation website, cycle AIRAC dated 16/6/2022:
                      https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv...dex-fr-FR.html

                      then select LFLL on the left, then select AD_2_LFLL_IAC_RWY17L_INA_ILS_LOC on the right. Or accessible directly here:
                      https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv...NA_ILS_LOC.pdf

                      This particular chart hasn't been updated since 2019 indeed, but are you sure it's invalid ?

                      - Jon Loblaw
                      Last edited by jrkob2; 23Jun2022, 04:29.
                      --------------------------------
                      Jon Loblaw

                      Comment


                        #13
                        Originally posted by spesimen View Post
                        when i look at the charts for that approach in navigraph, it doesn't indicate a vor/dme arc as part of the procedure..unless i am reading it incorrectly, after vne it is basically saying maintain course until radar vectors, which looks pretty much like what the FMS is displaying... am i missing something here?

                        edit: ah, looks like your charts are from 2019

                        cheers,-andy crosby
                        Andy and Jon,

                        the reason for this discrepancy is that both of you are looking at different charts.
                        • The one presented by Jon is for Lost Communications only, dated 26-JUL-19 on Navigraph / 07-NOV-19 on French AIP (Navigraph Chart: 11-1).
                        • However, you are referring to Chart 11-0 (dated: 28-FEB-20).

                        Cheers,
                        Andrej Lippay

                        Comment


                          #14
                          Ha obviously, yes my chart is for no radio procedures (I didn't see it before). Could you post a screenshot of Chart 11-0 ?
                          The problem is the French AIPs do not use Navigraph's chart numbering (which I suspect follows Jeppesen).
                          I have an older set of Jeppesen charts (dated 2013) but looking at it the charts have completely changed since.
                          What is strange, is that I don't see in the French AIPs (I posted a link above) an equivalent of what I think I should see on Chart 11-0, which is ILS approach for ILS 17L without the no radio restriction. They have other charts for VOR and RNP final approaches. Just not ILS. Not that I can see.

                          - Jon Loblaw
                          Last edited by jrkob2; 23Jun2022, 05:24.
                          --------------------------------
                          Jon Loblaw

                          Comment


                            #15
                            Jon,

                            I believe that you need to look at this chart at AIP:
                            https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/dvd/eAIP_16_JUN_2022/FRANCE/AIRAC-2022-06-16/html/eAIP/Cartes/LFLL/AD_2_LFLL_IAC_RWY_ALL_INA.pdf





                            Navigraph separated into two charts (11-0 and 11-0A)



                            Cheers,
                            Andrej Lippay

                            Comment


                              #16
                              Ok I see, so this chart works for multiple kind of approaches not just ILS as I was (wrongly) looking for, it's gotta be it, thanks a lot for the help !
                              Very clear.
                              --------------------------------
                              Jon Loblaw

                              Comment

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