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737 veers off runway after AUTOLAND touch down

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    737 veers off runway after AUTOLAND touch down

    The headline says it all. This happens repeatedly at different airports/runways when there are strong winds.

    What am I doing wrong? Check the ILS landing at the below video:

    Thank you,

    Claus Jensen

    https://youtu.be/U8eRgokmP_s

    #2
    There are a couple of things: First, you are landing with a quartering tailwind, which complicates things on its own. Second, it appears you did not turn off the autopilot, which may explain why it veered into the wind on touchdown. I believe you need to turn off the autopilot immediately on touchdown. Others with far more experience may have better explanations, but I offer this for what it's worth.

    Jim Erwin
    Jim Erwin

    Comment


      #3
      Correct. At difference from the Fenix A320, the B737NG does not track the centerline of the runway. So, soon after touchdown, the A/P needs to be disconnected, in order to apply rudder to keep the aircraft centered on the runway.
      Enrique Osuna
      Louisiana, USA

      Comment


        #4
        Does that mean the 737 doesn't have full "Autoland" (genuine question)? I generally disconnect at around 100-200ft - otherwise it all gets a little too hectic!
        Adam Banks (Adamski_NZ) : http://www.nzfsim.org

        Comment


          #5
          The real 737Ng will track centerline until the aircraft comes to a complete stop if the crew do not intervene. The real system continues to track the localizer throughout landing roll.
          Steve Atkins

          Comment


            #6
            Apparently, it makes a difference as to whether the aircraft is equipped with fail passive or fail operational autoland. This is from the FTCM (supplied with the NGX):

            737-600 - 737-900ER During an autoland with crosswind conditions, fail passive airplanes will touchdown in a crab. After touchdown, the rudder must be applied to maintain runway centerline. The autopilots must be disengaged immediately after touchdown. The control wheel should be turned into the wind as the autopilots are disengaged. The A/T disconnects automatically two seconds after touchdown.

            737-600 - 737-900ER During an autoland with crosswind conditions, fail operational airplanes (LAND 3 or LAND 2 annunciated), the runway alignment maneuver uses forward slip to reduce the crab angle of the airplane at touchdown. Alignment begins at 450 feet radio altitude or lower, depending on the strength of the crosswind. The amount of forward slip induced is limited to 5°. When a strong crosswind is present, the airplane does not fully align with the runway, but lands with a slight crab angle. In all cases, the upwind wing is low at touchdown. The autobrakes should remain engaged until a safe stop is assured and adequate visibility exists to control the airplane using visual references.

            737-600 - 737-900ER For fail operational airplanes, the autopilot and autobrakes should remain engaged until a safe stop is assured and adequate visibility exists to control the airplane using visual references.

            In any event, I defer to those who actually fly the real airplane.

            Jim Erwin
            Jim Erwin

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by CVJ View Post
              The headline says it all. This happens repeatedly at different airports/runways when there are strong winds.

              What am I doing wrong? Check the ILS landing at the below video:

              Thank you,

              Claus Jensen

              https://youtu.be/U8eRgokmP_s
              If you want auto-land to track the centerline of the runway, the auto-land system must be Fail Operational with both autopilots on. If your setup is correct for a Fail Operational auto-land, LAND3 will be displayed on the PFD, I believe at about 1500 ft. AGL. When the rollout has been completed, turn-off the autopilots prior to attempting to guide the A/C onto a taxiway, otherwise the A/C will insist on staying on the runway's centerline.
              Zach Kapsiotis

              Comment


                #8
                Have an FCOM
                Chapter 4 automatic flight
                http://www.737ng.co.uk/737NG%20POH.pdf

                Captura de pantalla 2022-06-14 102329.jpg
                Omar Josef
                737 FO
                757/767 rated
                Spain

                Comment


                  #9
                  Omar Josef,

                  I followed the above and it helped to keep my 737 on the runway, but with a problem at the end due to the extremely short runway (7600') making me stomp on my brakes.

                  Thanks for your help!

                  Claus Jensen

                  https://youtu.be/sMWtl0nWpvI
                  Last edited by CVJ; 15Jun2022, 02:45.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by enriqueo View Post
                    apply rudder to keep the aircraft centered on the runway.
                    Still waiting for the fix on that one...

                    <-------------->
                    Mike Murawski

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by CVJ View Post
                      Omar Josef,

                      I followed the above and it helped to keep my 737 on the runway, but with a problem at the end due to the extremely short runway (7600') making me stomp on my brakes.

                      Thanks for your help!

                      Claus Jensen

                      https://youtu.be/sMWtl0nWpvI
                      Hey, you are getting better at this!

                      Here are some more tips:

                      1. It looks like you flew a big part of the arrival with the speedbrakes armed (starting at 31:16 in the video). Don't do that.
                      2. Also, you selected FLAPS 15 before lowering the landing gear. Don't do that either.
                      3. Instead, do all this when it's time to extend the gear (according to the FCOM):
                      At glide slope alive, call:
                      • “GEAR DOWN”
                      • “FLAPS 15”

                      Set the landing gear lever to DN.
                      Verify that the green landing gear
                      indicator lights are illuminated.
                      Set the flap lever to 15.
                      [Without automatic ignition]
                      Set the engine start switches to CONT.

                      Set the speed brake lever to ARM.
                      Verify that the SPEED BRAKE
                      ARMED light is illuminated.

                      4. Don't use the autopilot disconnect bar on the MCP to disconnect the autopilot (counter intuitively, perhaps). From the PMDG 737 introduction manual:
                      I turned off the autopilot, but I can’t silence the alarm:

                      You need to press the autopilot disconnect button on your joystick (or the
                      Z key) twice in order to silence the alarm. Make the first press, wait a
                      second or two and then press it again. If you double-press too fast, it
                      won’t silence. Always use the disconnect button, don’t use the disconnect
                      “bar” on the MCP – you’ll have the siren constantly going off if you do.

                      5. Oh, and don't land on a runway that has another aircraft sitting on it...

                      Comment


                      • Steve M
                        Steve M commented
                        Editing a comment
                        'Oh, and don't land on a runway that has another aircraft sitting on it...'
                        What page is that in the manual? 😂

                      #12
                      Originally posted by CVJ View Post
                      Omar Josef,

                      I followed the above and it helped to keep my 737 on the runway, but with a problem at the end due to the extremely short runway (7600') making me stomp on my brakes.

                      Thanks for your help!

                      Claus Jensen

                      https://youtu.be/sMWtl0nWpvI
                      Once the OPT is brought back you'll be able to calculate landing performance.
                      Omar Josef
                      737 FO
                      757/767 rated
                      Spain

                      Comment


                        #13
                        7600ft isn't short for a -700. I mean I landed a full -900ER on a 5800ft runway yesterday.

                        But regarding the original question, yes this depends on fail passive or fail operational.. If you system is fail passive, the aircraft will autoland but you have to disconnect after touchdown. This is another benefit of the Aiii mode of the HUD; after touchdown a rollout mode is activated that allows you to track centerline basically without seeing it.

                        A fail operational aircraft will track centerline on autopilot, but it's more expensive to install and maintain that equipment, and it's basically unnecessary if you have the HUD.
                        Andrew Crowley

                        Comment


                          #14
                          Thank you all.

                          Guess this means one more flight on that route 🥺😩

                          And here it is - advance to 1 hour.

                          Still veers of the runway after touch down...

                          Claus Jensen
                          https://youtu.be/lon6834kS8c
                          Last edited by CVJ; 15Jun2022, 23:30.

                          Comment


                            #15
                            Originally posted by CVJ View Post
                            The headline says it all. This happens repeatedly at different airports/runways when there are strong winds.

                            What am I doing wrong? Check the ILS landing at the below video:

                            Thank you,

                            Claus Jensen

                            https://youtu.be/U8eRgokmP_s
                            Hello Claus,

                            don't worry. It is not your fault. Under MSFS, the aircraft gets out of control easily when correcting after landing. In X-Plane for example, this problem does simply not exist. It is the bad flight physics that MSFS has.

                            In reality, pilots can do very strong corrections after touchdown, shaking passengers from left to right and they do not veer off the runway at all. Experienced it a lot of times as a passenger.

                            So, PMDG is not to blame here, it is MSFS. I have it in the Fenix A320 and FBW A320nx, too.

                            My advice is, to apply only very gentle corrections after touchdown. In windy conditions...complicated of course.

                            Regards

                            Malte Dietsch

                            Comment


                              #16
                              After a certain ground speed, the ground physics in msfs are an ABSOLUTE JOKE. No airworthy machine behaves like that irl.
                              Omar Josef
                              737 FO
                              757/767 rated
                              Spain

                              Comment


                                #17
                                A good portion of the strange feeling ground physics in MSFS is due to crosswind effect being, well, far too effective. A 5kt crosswind component feels more like 15 or 20kts, etc. If you're disciplined about keeping aileron into the wind (something many real world airline pilots are pretty lazy about but shouldn't be), it fixes much of the squirrelly ground roll behavior in MSFS. Not all of it of course, but a lot of it. It still needs work, but the right amount of aileron into the wind makes directional control possible at least.
                                Andrew Crowley

                                Comment


                                  #18
                                  Originally posted by Stearmandriver View Post
                                  A good portion of the strange feeling ground physics in MSFS is due to crosswind effect being, well, far too effective. A 5kt crosswind component feels more like 15 or 20kts, etc. If you're disciplined about keeping aileron into the wind (something many real world airline pilots are pretty lazy about but shouldn't be), it fixes much of the squirrelly ground roll behavior in MSFS. Not all of it of course, but a lot of it. It still needs work, but the right amount of aileron into the wind makes directional control possible at least.
                                  Real world pilots are lazy about using aileron into wind? Since when?
                                  Omar Josef
                                  737 FO
                                  757/767 rated
                                  Spain

                                  Comment


                                    #19
                                    Originally posted by CVJ View Post
                                    Thank you all.

                                    Guess this means one more flight on that route 🥺😩

                                    And here it is - advance to 1 hour.

                                    Still veers of the runway after touch down...

                                    Claus Jensen
                                    https://youtu.be/lon6834kS8c
                                    For your approach speed, set Vref + 5 on the MCP instead of Vref. You had about 9-11 knots of tailwind which will give you a workout on the rudder. Configure your reverse thrust, that will really help with slowing you down and getting more rolling friction.
                                    Mike Murphy
                                    Commercial, Instrument, Rotorcraft-Helicopter

                                    Comment


                                      #20
                                      Originally posted by Aeromar View Post

                                      Real world pilots are lazy about using aileron into wind? Since when?
                                      Since I often compare airline pilots I fly with at work, with pilots I fly old taildraggers with. It's just a different level of awareness, borne of the relative necessity of being conscious of this in very different types of aircraft.

                                      Don't get me wrong, we fly 737s into some of the more challenging airports in the northern hemisphere in terms of terrain and weather, so it's not as if guys here can't fly. It's just... a different level of wind awareness.
                                      Andrew Crowley

                                      Comment


                                        #21
                                        Originally posted by Stearmandriver View Post

                                        Since I often compare airline pilots I fly with at work, with pilots I fly old taildraggers with. It's just a different level of awareness, borne of the relative necessity of being conscious of this in very different types of aircraft.

                                        Don't get me wrong, we fly 737s into some of the more challenging airports in the northern hemisphere in terms of terrain and weather, so it's not as if guys here can't fly. It's just... a different level of wind awareness.
                                        For taxi in the 737 aileron into wind is not needed. If the wind is so strong that you'd need aileron into wind during taxi, chances are you're not meeting your wind requirements for takeoff anyway and the airplane would be on the stand with full nose down trim waiting for conditions to improve. Then during the take off roll, until recently we were limited on the maximum amount of aileron into wind that we could use. This limitation has now disappeared but the FCTM does remind the pilot that using aileron into wind will also extend the spoilers on the downgoing wing and this is not accounted for in the takeoff performance calculations. So, yes, we use aileron into wind when necessary but only as much as necessary. A 737 is not a light airplane so you will not see an airlin pilot applying more than 2 or 3 degrees of control column into wind and this is the correct thing to do. Of course an airline pilot flying a light airplane should fly it like it's supposed to be flown...

                                        Captura de pantalla 2022-06-23 095800.jpg

                                        Omar Josef
                                        737 FO
                                        757/767 rated
                                        Spain

                                        Comment


                                          #22
                                          I mean, I've got about 13,000 hours in jets - mostly 737s - but thanks for the heads up I guess?

                                          There are wind conditions that call for significantly more than a few degrees of control wheel deflection into the wind, when landing or taking off on a contaminated runway in a strong crosswind at airports with no better choice. Dragging spoilers on takeoff isn't ideal, but when it's a choice between that or having difficulty maintaining centerline...

                                          Anyway. Point is only that being conscientious of this in MSFS and using as much aileron as it takes - vs as much as you think it should - to negate crosswind effect will make directional control easier. Just like in real life.
                                          Andrew Crowley

                                          Comment

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