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Not Heading for RUGVI

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    Not Heading for RUGVI

    I took off followed my first weigh point fine, but now I'm heading off in a straight line... why?

    NotFollowing.png

    Cheers
    Roger Thompson



    #2
    Originally posted by kiwis View Post
    I took off followed my first weigh point fine, but now I'm heading off in a straight line... why?

    NotFollowing.png

    Cheers
    Roger Thompson

    It's hard to make out what's going on here. So this is a SID presumably? Firstly I'd ask did you hit TOGA on takeoff, and next is that maybe the SID had some logic in it which still hasn't been met (e.g. climb such and such thousand feet, right turn direct to, but it's not detected that). The aircraft pitch mode shouldn't be VNAV path here (especially since you're not on an LNAV track anymore), it should be either VNAV alt or FMC Speed (with the engine at a set climb power N1). But there's also the matter of the 10,000 ft restriction, so the aircraft has leveled off, but gone into VNAV path here. If this was me I'd just be line-select and overwrite RUGVI to make it recalculate a direct LAV route (and initial turn path) and fly it in level change mode (or alt hold for level segments) instead of VNAV... As for why it did this in the first place I'd only assume TOGA wasn't pressed? Oh and did you have LNAV set to armed before hitting TOGA?
    Last edited by Wixy; 03Jun2022, 00:23.

    Comment


      #3
      I also flew this departure and uploaded to youtube for you, hopefully this helps. Don't know why it started me on the ground with landing gear up.. never mind that bit.
      https://youtu.be/VfyXKSNnxdI
      Last edited by Wixy; 03Jun2022, 04:33.

      Comment


        #4
        Yes I was using TOGA.

        I was also getting LNAV and VNAV before departure, although I'm wondering if I forgot to do it until after airborne - would this change things? I noticed you only set LNAV - what is that?

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by kiwis View Post
          Yes I was using TOGA.

          I was also getting LNAV and VNAV before departure, although I'm wondering if I forgot to do it until after airborne - would this change things? I noticed you only set LNAV - what is that?
          I had always thought that TOGA would override any pitch modes, so from memory it's not something I used to do prior to takeoff and VNAV wasn't engaged until the flaps were retracted on the climb out (although it's been 6 years since I flew 737-BBJs, lol). There's also a peculiarity with this SID, in that the first waypoint after takeoff (GUTNI) is a flyover waypoint (instead of the normal waypoint where the aircraft will 'cut the corner'). So it's possible that if you didn't engage LNAV soon enough or it wasn't tracking accurately when it flew near GUTNI, then the FMS didn't consider the way point to have been 'flown-over' so it never turned the corner (it was still waiting to fly over it even though it had gone past it).

          Back when I was flying these things I remember that the aircraft couldn't even be programmed with flyover waypoints and we had to do these types of departures in heading-select, it was only Airbus' back then which could do flyover waypoints. So i'd have to refer you on to someone who is more familiar with the most recent iterations of the FMCs.

          In the meantime you'd be best trying out some other departures without a flyover point to see if it does the same thing, then we can probably narrow it down a bit.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Wixy View Post

            I had always thought that TOGA would override any pitch modes, so from memory it's not something I used to do prior to takeoff and VNAV wasn't engaged until the flaps were retracted on the climb out (although it's been 6 years since I flew 737-BBJs, lol). There's also a peculiarity with this SID, in that the first waypoint after takeoff (GUTNI) is a flyover waypoint (instead of the normal waypoint where the aircraft will 'cut the corner'). So it's possible that if you didn't engage LNAV soon enough or it wasn't tracking accurately when it flew near GUTNI, then the FMS didn't consider the way point to have been 'flown-over' so it never turned the corner (it was still waiting to fly over it even though it had gone past it).

            Back when I was flying these things I remember that the aircraft couldn't even be programmed with flyover waypoints and we had to do these types of departures in heading-select, it was only Airbus' back then which could do flyover waypoints. So i'd have to refer you on to someone who is more familiar with the most recent iterations of the FMCs.

            In the meantime you'd be best trying out some other departures without a flyover point to see if it does the same thing, then we can probably narrow it down a bit.
            What exactly is a flyover and what makes it so different? How should you fly these waypoints?

            To avoid confusion, what settings should you set pre TOGA LNAV and VNAV or which one, I understood you can't hit LNAV if the first waypoint is more than 5 degrees of the runway heading (maybe it was 15)

            Comment


              #7
              There are two different kinds of waypoints (I don't think there are more, but I could be wrong): Fly-by and fly-over.

              A fly-by waypoint is one where, if the LNAV track turns at that point, the aircraft will begin the turn prior to reaching the waypoint, fly "by" the waypoint, and roll out onto the new track.

              On the other hand, a fly-over waypoint is one where the aircraft must fly over the waypoint before starting a turn to the next track, so the aircraft will need to re-intercept the new track after crossing the waypoint.
              Tim Lincoln
              My YouTube Channel

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Want2BFlyin View Post
                There are two different kinds of waypoints (I don't think there are more, but I could be wrong): Fly-by and fly-over.

                A fly-by waypoint is one where, if the LNAV track turns at that point, the aircraft will begin the turn prior to reaching the waypoint, fly "by" the waypoint, and roll out onto the new track.

                On the other hand, a fly-over waypoint is one where the aircraft must fly over the waypoint before starting a turn to the next track, so the aircraft will need to re-intercept the new track after crossing the waypoint.
                Thanks, I set LNAV on the ground before TOGA.

                I fly over GUNTI and start to turn, turn maybe 20-30d and then level out. I click RUGVI and click it again, EXEC and I start turning again.

                It's so weird.

                How can I film what I'm going so people can better see what's going wrong

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by kiwis View Post

                  Thanks, I set LNAV on the ground before TOGA.

                  I fly over GUNTI and start to turn, turn maybe 20-30d and then level out. I click RUGVI and click it again, EXEC and I start turning again.

                  It's so weird.

                  How can I film what I'm going so people can better see what's going wrong
                  You can film it with Windows' built-in recording application if you have the Game Bar enabled in your settings. If so, pressing WIN+ALT+R will start and stop a recording. Then post it to Youtube and post the link here. Alternately, if you have an Nvidia graphics card, the Nvidia Geforce Experience service can record a clip (ALT+F9 to start and stop recording).

                  But it would help if you posted your departure airport/runway, and the route you're trying to fly at least.
                  Herb Schaltegger - Father, husband, lawyer, engineer & getting too old for this $#!t. Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball!TM.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Thanks, I actually had it with the NVIDIA card.

                    Route is:

                    NZPM/25 GUTNI3R OMBUB Y273 LIKTU Q126 DABKA BEBER1D NZHN/36R

                    Here's a video. Please be kind, some other things are likely wrong. Let me know if they are, I'm on week 2 or 3 of this.

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNHXD8iuzak

                    Comment


                    • Crabby
                      Crabby commented
                      Editing a comment
                      As I watch
                      1. Why did you change the switches on the IRS?
                      2. You cannot align the Navs if you are on Battery only. The require DC. Do not turn them until you have ground power established and on or you have the APU running and on the busses.
                      3. You plane your call Captain, but if you are on Ground Power you do not need to immediately start the APU. I don't start my APU until I am about 5 minutes from PUSH
                      4. You don't need all those lights on, on the right side. Nav is automatic. If you are on the runway you want strobes to BOTH (up position)
                      5. Before activating TOGA, you should manually advance the throttles to 40-50 % and wait for them to stabilize there, then release toe brakes and hit toga.
                      6. Watch some videos for the flows. Flows are what you do in order to get to the point where you run a checklist. Flows are logical and designed so you don't forget anything by jumping from one task/area to another. There is at least one flow associated and that should be done for each checklist type. For example there is a Pre-Flight flow (what is done and in what order) before the Pre-Flight checklist (confirms that the flow was done properly) Flows are only done by either the Pilot Flying or the Pilot Not Flying depending on what they are. Checklists are always done with both pilots.

                      On to the GUTNI3R
                      My Jepp charts show that the departure really only consists of RNAV to GUNTI. The chart specifies that the other transitions are ONLY available Ohakea TMA hours of watch only. The LNAV has no way of knowing if this is the case, so your "automatic" departure stopped at GUNTI and it will then hold that heading. After ATC (our yourself if there is no ATC), gives you a vector then you tell it to do that.
                      The behavior you see on THAT departure is normal. Note GUNTI is a flyover waypoint (star in a circle).

                      On a chart SOLID lines are Procedure tracks and they will be flown as entered.
                      Dash lines are visual flight paths and (since I just saw Top Gun 30 minutes ago) You gotta do some of that pilot crap kiwis.

                    #11
                    Originally posted by kiwis View Post
                    Thanks, I actually had it with the NVIDIA card.

                    Route is:

                    NZPM/25 GUTNI3R OMBUB Y273 LIKTU Q126 DABKA BEBER1D NZHN/36R

                    Here's a video. Please be kind, some other things are likely wrong. Let me know if they are, I'm on week 2 or 3 of this.

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNHXD8iuzak
                    Thanks for posting that, I have been able to reproduce the bug, reported it and we are looking into it. In the meantime after flying over the first waypoint please set a direct to the next waypoint and execute. That will resume LNAV. cheers.
                    Cristian Caicedo A.

                    Comment


                    • Crabby
                      Crabby commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Don't think it is a bug. Look at the chart DASHED LINES, not a procedure track. GUTNI is the end of the RNAV departure. Pilot intervention required after if the other transitions are authorized. GUTNI is a flyover waypoint. I can reproduce the issue too because I don't think it's an issue. See symbology chart below and compare to the GUTNI departure plate and instructions.

                    #12
                    Departure Procedure symbology
                    Aeronautical Chart Users' Guide - Terminal Procedure Publications and 1 more page - Personal - Microsoft​ Edge 6_4_2022 12_31_23 AM.png
                    Mark "Crabby" Crabtree AAL311 | PHL
                    I7-9700KF | 2070 Super | Honeycomb Alpha/Bravo | MFG Crosswind

                    Comment


                      #13
                      Crabby You are looking at the symbology for FAA government charts. This is a Jeppesen chart with different symbology. The procedure is correct and after GUTNI (flyover) LNAV should turn towards RUGVI with no pilot intervention. There is a bug. Thanks for looking into it.
                      Cristian Caicedo A.

                      Comment


                        #14
                        Originally posted by kiwis View Post
                        Thanks, I actually had it with the NVIDIA card.

                        Route is:

                        NZPM/25 GUTNI3R OMBUB Y273 LIKTU Q126 DABKA BEBER1D NZHN/36R

                        Here's a video. Please be kind, some other things are likely wrong. Let me know if they are, I'm on week 2 or 3 of this.

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNHXD8iuzak
                        In addition to Crabby's comments, here are some additional things that might help you. I know these have nothing to do with the original issue, but since you've asked for it...
                        1. When down-selecting the current GPS position into the scratchpad on the POS REF 2/3 page, use the 4L or 5L LSKs. You were trying to use the right-side keys (which don't work).
                        2. Instead, you ended up entering the LAST POS entry into the IRS position. This may have introduced a positional error into your IRS.
                        3. I'm not sure if it makes that much of a difference, but all documentation I've read state that you need to input your route first (on the RTE 2/2 page and following), and only *then* select the departing runway and SID using the DEP/ARR pages (and optionally the arrival as well).
                        4. The transition altitude at Palmerston North is 13000 feet, not 10000, according the the Jepp chart (hey, you ask for nitpicking, then nitpicking is what you get!).
                        5. After switching the APU generators to the bus, you don't need to select GRD PWR to OFF. This is implied and done automatically.
                        6. At engine start, most of the overhead flow should have been completed. Specifically: the yaw damper, window heats and all hydraulic pumps should be ON at that point. Also: turn on the anti collision light before starting the engines.
                        7. You should start retracting flaps a bit sooner. When the speed trend vector is positive, go to flaps 1 at V2 + 15 (in this case, around 138 knots), and flaps UP when passing the "1" bug. Also, don't engage VNAV before the flaps are retracted (says the FCTM, because VNAV does not provide leading edge overspeed protection).
                        You're doing okay. Keep at it!

                        One other thing I noticed that no one mentioned yet, though, was what happend at 9:16 in the video when you engaged CMD A. At that moment, the pitch mode disengages (see the green box in the pitch mode FMA) and CWS P enunciates in amber. I *think* that's because you enabled the autopilot while you're applying pitch-up force to the control column. Instead, you should first trim the aircraft so it maintains its pitch attitude, release pressure on the yoke, and only then enable the autopilot.

                        Real pilots out there who actually know what they're talking about: please correct me if I'm wrong!

                        Hope this helps!
                        Last edited by Max Rate; 04Jun2022, 11:51.

                        Comment


                          #15
                          Originally posted by ccapilot View Post

                          Crabby You are looking at the symbology for FAA government charts. This is a Jeppesen chart with different symbology. The procedure is correct and after GUTNI (flyover) LNAV should turn towards RUGVI with no pilot intervention. There is a bug. Thanks for looking into it.
                          Yes, you are correct that is the FAA symbology for departure charts, which Jeppesen also uses. Here is the Jeppesen departure chart. As you can see GUNTI is the RNAV and it is an overfly fix. You cannot turn until you are past GUNTI.

                          Jeppesen uses the same symbology, in fact MUST use the same symbology, as the FAA charts. Only the distribution of information is different.
                          Attached Files
                          Last edited by Crabby; 04Jun2022, 13:35.
                          Mark "Crabby" Crabtree AAL311 | PHL
                          I7-9700KF | 2070 Super | Honeycomb Alpha/Bravo | MFG Crosswind

                          Comment


                            #16
                            Originally posted by Crabby View Post

                            Yes, you are correct that is the FAA symbology for departure charts, which Jeppesen also uses. Here is the Jeppesen departure chart. As you can see GUNTI is the RNAV and it is an overfly fix. You cannot turn until you are past GUNTI.

                            Jeppesen uses the same symbology, in fact MUST use the same symbology, as the FAA charts. Only the distribution of information is different.
                            I don't know why you are talking about the charts, the issue is that the airplane is not turning after overflying GUTNI towards the next wpt which is RUGVI. The fact that GUTNI is an overfly fix only means that the LNAV does not do turn anticipation, it has to wait until overflying the fix and then turn, while in normal fixes LNAV does turn anticipation towards the next leg and hence never really overflies the waypoint. In either case LNAV should turn and continue towards the next waypoint and in this example is not doing it.
                            Cristian Caicedo A.

                            Comment


                              #17
                              Originally posted by ccapilot View Post

                              Thanks for posting that, I have been able to reproduce the bug, reported it and we are looking into it. In the meantime after flying over the first waypoint please set a direct to the next waypoint and execute. That will resume LNAV. cheers.
                              Yeah it's kinda strange that LNAV hasn't calculated a radius of turn after that fly-over waypoint like mine did. Like you can see the turn isn't going to work just by the LNAV track, there's no calculation of a turn there. If you have a look at mine you can see there is a turn radius calculated at GUTNI:
                              https://youtu.be/VfyXKSNnxdI?t=568

                              But kiwis doesn't...

                              It's almost like it's missing some Perf Init information in order to calculate LNAV and VNAV info (like top of climb, etc too). I would have been interested to see the PROG page info if it had of been setup on the F/O's FMC. And also it would have been good to see the departure stepped through in Plan mode + Legs page on the nav display before the departure to see if there were any weird discontinuities, etc...

                              I'm perplexed why it works on mine and not the original poster's sim - but as others have pointed out there was some errors made in the flwos with initialising IRS's etc so this could have led to a software BUG revealing itself I guess.

                              Comment


                                #18
                                There's definitely something weird going on here. Regardless of chart symbology, procedure design, or anything else, the FMA is showing LNAV, the ND looks good with a line going from GUNTI to RUGVI, RUGVI is shown in the top right of the ND with correct distance and RUGVI is in magenta at the top of the LEGS page. It should be working from what I can see. If something wasn't entered correctly in PERF INIT, it just wouldn't engage LNAV/VNAV. Looks like a bug to me.
                                -Trevor Brooke

                                Comment


                                  #19
                                  Originally posted by Phoenix_Imperium View Post
                                  There's definitely something weird going on here. Regardless of chart symbology, procedure design, or anything else, the FMA is showing LNAV, the ND looks good with a line going from GUNTI to RUGVI, RUGVI is shown in the top right of the ND with correct distance and RUGVI is in magenta at the top of the LEGS page. It should be working from what I can see. If something wasn't entered correctly in PERF INIT, it just wouldn't engage LNAV/VNAV. Looks like a bug to me.
                                  I just find it ironic that somebody from the tech team confirmed that there was an issue and people are still debating on whether there is an issue. First time I've ever seen that happen in the years I've been around here.
                                  Captain Kevin

                                  Kevin Yang

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