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Extreme noseup attitude for landing everytime.

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    Extreme noseup attitude for landing everytime.

    Hi guys, for some reason my final approach speed and behavior is strange everytime.
    Here I was on final at KMDW. On the FMC final approach speed was 123kts and flaps 40.
    If I would try to reach 123kts the nose of the aircraft would go so high I couldn't even see the airport. I had to use the up key to move my view to be able to see where I was going and had to add more speed to 140kts to get a view like the one in the picture.
    I don't know why the aircraft has such a nose-up attitude on final, specially around 500ft above the runway for landing.
    Any special technique for this? Its's really unconfortable as you can't really measure out the descent without being able to view the runway.

    Screenshot (7).png
    Attached Files
    Teofilo Homsany

    #2
    Did you use MSFS weight and balance to config your weight?
    Bai Jian

    Comment


    • teofilo
      teofilo commented
      Editing a comment
      No, using the FMC on the aircraft for PAYLOAD and FUEL.
      Also if you can look at the image the trim is out of bounds on final.
      Last edited by teofilo; 13May2022, 03:24.

    #3
    Can you send a screenshot of the payload page?
    George Morris

    Comment


    • teofilo
      teofilo commented
      Editing a comment
      Already closed the sim but the ZFW was 113.2 set in the payload page.
      FP was done in Simbrief and I entered the value manually in the payload page of the FMC.

    #4
    Originally posted by citation79 View Post
    Hi guys, for some reason my final approach speed and behavior is strange everytime.
    Here I was on final at KMDW. On the FMC final approach speed was 123kts and flaps 40.
    If I would try to reach 123kts the nose of the aircraft would go so high I couldn't even see the airport. I had to use the up key to move my view to be able to see where I was going and had to add more speed to 140kts to get a view like the one in the picture.
    I don't know why the aircraft has such a nose-up attitude on final, specially around 500ft above the runway for landing.
    Any special technique for this? Its's really unconfortable as you can't really measure out the descent without being able to view the runway.

    Screenshot (7).png
    I am seeing this behaviour also.

    The aircraft is trimming itself outside its usual range whilst descending and into base leg/final. I am manually inputting the speed into the MCP window during base leg whilst holding IAF altitude.

    I haven't determined precisely why, but at this initial juncture I believe it "may" have something to do with either the imported simbrief flight plan and the fmc (and quite possibly values inputted).

    This has happened at least twice for me. And on the latest arrival into KPHX I quickly disengaged the AP and manually trimmed the aircraft into the centre zone and then proceeded with final and landing.
    Steve Summers - i7 8770K @ 4.7Ghz - 32Gb Corsair Vengeance DDR4 3000Mhz - EVGA RTX 2070 SC 8Gb - ACER X34 Predator IPS GSYNC 3440x1440 - ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-H - 3 x Samsung Pro SSD 512Gb - Corsair H100i GTX - Win 10 Pro 64 - MSFS. "The Only Easy Day Was Yesterday"

    Comment


      #5
      Need screen shots of payload screen. Looks like a very strange CG.
      Last edited by Falcon99; 14May2022, 13:37.
      George Morris

      Comment


        #6
        Why would you want to use 123kt on final approach if your FMC is showing that your VREF with flap 40 is 127kt? You tried to use a speed below the VREF.

        Another detail: the STAB OUT OF TRIM light is illuminated.

        Pedro Guedes

        Comment


          #7
          Originally posted by XCLTM3 View Post

          I am seeing this behaviour also.

          The aircraft is trimming itself outside its usual range whilst descending and into base leg/final. I am manually inputting the speed into the MCP window during base leg whilst holding IAF altitude.

          I haven't determined precisely why, but at this initial juncture I believe it "may" have something to do with either the imported simbrief flight plan and the fmc (and quite possibly values inputted).

          This has happened at least twice for me. And on the latest arrival into KPHX I quickly disengaged the AP and manually trimmed the aircraft into the centre zone and then proceeded with final and landing.
          For me it happens all the time, not 1 or 2 times... Will fly it today and get the PAYLOAD page when landing. But there is an issue there for sure.

          Teo
          Teofilo Homsany

          Comment


            #8
            Originally posted by Falcon99 View Post
            Need scree shots of payload screen. Looks like a very strange CG.
            Will get you the picture today when I take her out for spin. It happens all the time for me, different liveries, same issue.
            All using the FMC payload manager to load passengers and fuel.
            Teo
            Teofilo Homsany

            Comment


              #9
              Screenshot (9).png

              Here is the FMC payload page when boarding.
              Payload set at 113.2
              Teofilo Homsany

              Comment


                #10
                Some more observations:
                • Vref is below minimum maneuver speed. Is that ever supposed to happen?
                • The underspeed indicator is shown in the MCP speed window.
                • AOA is 12.2° and way outside of the green band.
                It's almost as if the aircraft is a lot heavier than the FMC thinks it is. This is bizarre... Are you sure the ZFW is actually correct? Which value do you get if you don't enter a value manually, but just press the 3LSK in the PERF INIT page?
                Last edited by Max Rate; 13May2022, 14:48.

                Comment


                  #11
                  I'll (carefully) add my concern here.

                  I also find it hard to stay on the glide once the AP is disconnected for final approach and often (not every time) find I have to go pretty hard nose down, to the point where I go "what the...". I attributed it to msfs flight model being different and the weather (most of my landings since release has been in bad weather) and didn't think much of it until I came across this thread. It's defintely different than in P3D. (I've flown this PMDG bird since 2012 in FSX and P3D so assume I know how to fly it.)

                  That being said, haven't come across anything else. I've handflown a few tough departures without any issues. It's just the glide on final that bothers me. (If there is something wrong, it wouldn't surprise if it has to do with the utilization of Pause at TOD. I have found that weird stuff happens after unpausing unless you do it almost immediately. Have to do some more testing on this.)
                  Last edited by AndreH; 13May2022, 15:18.
                  André Hansson

                  Comment


                    #12
                    Just my two cents, the aircraft is heavier than you are planning for. If the ZFW, 113.2, from your pic of the CDU is from the same flight it makes sence that you land with a GW of around 121.0 as you have about 8.0 in your tanks. However, the aircraft is underspeeding, that's why the A is in front of your speed in the speed window, it's to keep you from stalling the aircraft.

                    Now why this is happening I do not know, I would need more information. I have flown 11 flights with the aircraft so far it handles very nice, and in my opinion the closest to the real thing in any simulator I have tried (XP11, FSX and P3D).
                    Johan Olsson

                    Comment


                    • teofilo
                      teofilo commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Exacly the FMC gives you a speed but the aircraft is not being able to keep up the rate of descent, hence increases the nose to try to keep up with the glide. Not normal and have never seen it in P3D aircrafts for long time. And I have been flying the 737 aircraft in P3D for ages.

                    • JuliettOscar
                      JuliettOscar commented
                      Editing a comment
                      No, it is not normal. I have not seen this at all in my sim so either something is wrong in the setup for the approach or 0's or 1's ended up in the wrong place when installing....

                      I suggest that you do another flight as normal, then if this happens take a picture of the flight deck between 10-5NM final, or whenever it happens and then a pic of the REF page, with the landing speeds and one of the Payload page. (Take the pics of REF page and PAYLOAD before the approach to save you some time.) Just to confirm that all weights are correct.

                      What speeds are you flying during the approach?
                      Speed at 15 miles or base leg?
                      Speed at 10 miles and so on?

                    #13
                    Originally posted by citation79 View Post
                    Screenshot (9).png

                    Here is the FMC payload page when boarding.
                    Payload set at 113.2
                    I've loaded a SWA B737-700 single class airframe. Set fuel on board to about what you indicate on your approach (7800 lbs), and entered the same payload. Your loading resulted in 18.0%/113.2 with GW 143.9 klbs. My loading of the same resulted in 18.1%/113.2 with GS 121.0 klbs!! That is a hellofa difference and is congruent with your problem on approach.

                    You got about 22900 lbs too much in that airframe. The one thing that can easily do that is a corrupt panel state.

                    Of course we all agree that the payload utility provided by MSFS cannot be used... ever.
                    Dan Downs KCRP
                    i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 3080Ti

                    Comment


                    • DDowns
                      DDowns commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Ah so you had an additional 22.9 klbs of fuel at the time of that picture. Regardless, there are only two things I know of that can cause this problem: Panel State or FSUIPC.

                    • JuliettOscar
                      JuliettOscar commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I guess he had 22.9 klbs for the flight and only about 8.0 left when on final. But as I said, I don't know if the two pictures, Final and CDU pics, are from the same flight or not.

                    • teofilo
                      teofilo commented
                      Editing a comment
                      guys I am loading the Apron long panel state for that aircraft and I get the issue..

                    #14
                    Originally posted by Max Rate View Post
                    Some more observations:
                    • Vref is below minimum maneuver speed. Is that ever supposed to happen?
                    • The underspeed indicator is shown in the MCP speed window.
                    • AOA is 12.2° and way outside of the green band.
                    It's almost as if the aircraft is a lot heavier than the FMC thinks it is. This is bizarre... Are you sure the ZFW is actually correct? Which value do you get if you don't enter a value manually, but just press the 3LSK in the PERF INIT page?
                    The loading weight is around 128.4 or something like that when I load it as default on the gate.
                    I always change the ZFW when loading the aircraft and have never found an issue in other 737 versions.
                    That innestability on final is bad and really screws up your landing. Don't know what else to try to solve it.
                    Teofilo Homsany

                    Comment


                      #15
                      All loading issues aside. This will happen if the flare is started too soon (for the 737) and power is cut. I fly the aircraft to the runway and cut power below 20 feet. If you watch real 737 pilots flying this bird, that is what they do too. Watch this video from a real 737 driver and development team member and read the comments. I was getting bad landings until I followed this technique and now butter butter. PMDG 737-700 for MSFS - Tutorial 14: Landing & Taxi-in - YouTube

                      Comment


                      • Crabby
                        Crabby commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Should have said, "I was getting bad landings caused by a serious nose down moment"

                      #16
                      Originally posted by Crabby View Post
                      All loading issues aside. This will happen if the flare is started too soon (for the 737) and power is cut. I fly the aircraft to the runway and cut power below 20 feet. If you watch real 737 pilots flying this bird, that is what they do too. Watch this video from a real 737 driver and development team member and read the comments. I was getting bad landings until I followed this technique and now butter butter. PMDG 737-700 for MSFS - Tutorial 14: Landing & Taxi-in - YouTube
                      In my case I lose the glide well before this. I think I just suck. And possibly I can blame low fps which makes things a lot harder. I'm a VR flyer and I've had some spectacularly stuttery bad weather landings at RJTT. That's probably it. Nothing makes a landing harder than stutters.
                      André Hansson

                      Comment


                      • AndreH
                        AndreH commented
                        Editing a comment
                        VR is pretty sweet. I have 8 year old hardware and RJTT is probably the worst performing area in the sim. I've had easily the best flights of my simming life in VR in msfs. No doubt. In more remote places the pmdg performs well.

                      • teofilo
                        teofilo commented
                        Editing a comment
                        The aircrafts starts underspeeding because I think the FMC calculations are not according to the actual weight of the aircraft.. I get that noseup attitude throught my ILS approach, not even doing an autoland.

                      • rsm2000e
                        rsm2000e commented
                        Editing a comment
                        You're wishing for Mixed Virtual Reality, where you touch real controls (Yoke/Throttle) but 'see' the sim scenery in your headset. That is 'the dream' but it's quite pricey at present and may not actually be available as yet for MSFS.

                      #17
                      Not easy to see here if you are attempting an ILS autoland or at least allowing the AP to fly the approach in APP mode or if you are hand-flying the plane on approach?

                      I find that at times when disconnecting the autopilot (especially if coming down from a somewhat forced decent) the trim is set a bit odd, this causes you to have to push or pull on the stick quite a bit to keep the plane going where you want it to. Take the time on autopilot disconnect to feel that the plane is flying straight without the need for excessive pressure on the stick (in either direction) to go where you want. If the nose wants to drop apply elevator trim up, and if the nose wants to bob upwards apply trim down. I also suppose the FMC could probably give you a trim setting somewhere in those fancy pages but did not check that closely yet. (elevator trim indicator is located to the left of the spoilers handle)

                      With a correctly trimmed aircraft it will be a lot easier to land and you won't have to fight the plane.

                      As for speeds as some noted I would personally not go that slow that early. Real 737 pilots can correct me of course (curious to know actually what would be a reasonable rule of thumb but I tend to fly 210-220 downwind, 180 base, 160 establishing on final and then 150-145 until about 1000 ft above ground and then start slowly dropping speed towards ref speed, and rather a bit too fast than a bit to slow.
                      Daniel Sjöberg

                      Comment


                      • DDowns
                        DDowns commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Along the same line, don't land Flap 40 unless there is a reason. The 1000 AGL applies when IMC but if you have runway in sight then final configuration and speed before 500 AGL.

                      • teofilo
                        teofilo commented
                        Editing a comment
                        hey Daniel, I am not attempting an autoland, I am landing flaps 40 because of the runway size, that's all. In this case at KMDW i chose flaps 40 for that but the symptom of the noseup attitude starts when joining the localizer and start adding flaps. When the aircraft starts slowing down the nose starts raising even when flying at level flight. When I hit the glideslope it starts descending but still with the noseup attitude, never goes down even on proper speed and flap setting so something is going on there.

                      #18
                      Lots of Swedes in this thread. Tjenare, grabbar
                      André Hansson

                      Comment


                      #19
                      Originally posted by Daniel_sjoberg View Post
                      Not easy to see here if you are attempting an ILS autoland or at least allowing the AP to fly the approach in APP mode or if you are hand-flying the plane on approach?
                      The FMA modes are MCP SPD | VOR/LOC | G/S | SINGLE CH, and the ILS is tuned and identified. So yes, they are flying a coupled approach.

                      Which also means that the comments in this thread on hand flying the approach, while valid, are not exactly relevant to the situation at hand. This is a case of the A/P trying to fly an approach and failing miserably. Whether that's caused by a bug or misconfiguration, is yet to be determined...
                      Last edited by Max Rate; 13May2022, 16:52.

                      Comment


                      • teofilo
                        teofilo commented
                        Editing a comment
                        There is an issue with weight and the way the FMC is handling speeds with the AP, I get the noseup throughout the approach with the AP on, LOC and GS coupled all the way down to 500ft that I turn it off but then the aircraft has such a bad descent profile with the trim outside its limits that is impossible to land it without putting trim in the other way completely to try to lower the nose on final. Something is definately happening here with the aircraft.

                      #20
                      Originally posted by Max Rate View Post

                      The FMA modes are MCP SPD | VOR/LOC | G/S | SINGLE CH, and the ILS is tuned and identified. So yes, they are flying a coupled approach.

                      Which also means that the comments in this thread on hand flying the approach, while valid, are not exactly relevant to the situation at hand. This is a case of the A/P trying to fly an approach and failing miserably. Whether that's caused by a bug or misconfiguration, is yet to be determined...
                      Yes, after rereading the OP, I realize I'm talking about something else and may have inadvertently high-jacked the tread. Apologies. I will quietly see myself to the door...
                      André Hansson

                      Comment


                        #21
                        I just flew a flight from KSLC to KJAC.

                        Used PMDG Cold & Dark preset.

                        Did not use Simbrief, but manually inserted a flight plan.

                        5.2 Tonnes of fuel. Full PAX. 24% CG (All set within FMC)

                        Trim was all normal within green band limits (ie 5.0) entire flight until descent phase when trim sound was heard constantly turning. Auto flight - no manual inputs at all.

                        Trim wheel eventually set itself to 9+ just outside the green band. This was on turn to final. Aircraft still on full auto flight.

                        I slowly set flaps according to schedule - whilst still on full auto flight.

                        Slowly, Trim began to correct itself to around 7 within the green band when I disconnected auto and took control manually to land.

                        As in previous approaches to land, once disconnecting the AP I realized the trim was set by AP to 9+, I then had to retrim to 5 to get a stable approach.

                        Since I utilized a PMDG flightdeck preset, used the FMC for inputs solely, I'm at a loss as to why this is happening.

                        Really like to unlock this minor issue. Never experienced this in P3D.
                        Steve Summers - i7 8770K @ 4.7Ghz - 32Gb Corsair Vengeance DDR4 3000Mhz - EVGA RTX 2070 SC 8Gb - ACER X34 Predator IPS GSYNC 3440x1440 - ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-H - 3 x Samsung Pro SSD 512Gb - Corsair H100i GTX - Win 10 Pro 64 - MSFS. "The Only Easy Day Was Yesterday"

                        Comment


                          #22
                          Originally posted by XCLTM3 View Post
                          I just flew a flight from KSLC to KJAC.

                          Used PMDG Cold & Dark preset.

                          Did not use Simbrief, but manually inserted a flight plan.

                          5.2 Tonnes of fuel. Full PAX. 24% CG (All set within FMC)

                          Trim was all normal within green band limits (ie 5.0) entire flight until descent phase when trim sound was heard constantly turning. Auto flight - no manual inputs at all.

                          Trim wheel eventually set itself to 9+ just outside the green band. This was on turn to final. Aircraft still on full auto flight.

                          I slowly set flaps according to schedule - whilst still on full auto flight.

                          Slowly, Trim began to correct itself to around 7 within the green band when I disconnected auto and took control manually to land.

                          As in previous approaches to land, once disconnecting the AP I realized the trim was set by AP to 9+, I then had to retrim to 5 to get a stable approach.

                          Since I utilized a PMDG flightdeck preset, used the FMC for inputs solely, I'm at a loss as to why this is happening.

                          Really like to unlock this minor issue. Never experienced this in P3D.
                          I get the same issue... there is something up with the trim attitude on final approach using the Autopilot.. on my ILS the trim goes all the way out of limits and the nose fully up maitaining the FMC speed.
                          Teofilo Homsany

                          Comment


                            #23
                            This might still be relevant to my handflying issue above. If I disconnect the AP at a 1000 agl and the AP had put the plane in extreme trim to keep the nose down it my issues of having to go hard nose down to maintain the glide makes sense.
                            André Hansson

                            Comment


                              #24
                              Same problem, and never had that in p3d version.
                              pax full and 1300kg bagage front , 0 kg rear trim to 5.8
                              Frédéric Giraud

                              Comment


                                #25
                                Maybe it's somthing affected by the latest update from Microsoft, there is a bug there for sure for the trim to go all the way out of normal operation.
                                Teofilo Homsany

                                Comment


                                  #26
                                  Gents,

                                  One other item to try. Use the default loads on the payload screen to test with. Do a set random or one of the others. Try to use the same fuel load, let us know what it was, when doing this. Then fly the approach. If things work on the different FMS generated payloads, then there is probably and issue with the custom load out you're trying to enter.

                                  I am NOT saying yet we don't have something more here, but it would be helpful for us to know if at the FMS preset loads things are working fine for you and that this could be isolated to specific custom loads.

                                  Also, as Dan stated above, NEVER use the MSFS aircraft custom screens. Please leave them alone on defaults. If you try changing these parameters it will definitavely lead to very unpredictable results.

                                  Good discussion, thank you.
                                  Last edited by Falcon99; 14May2022, 13:48.
                                  George Morris

                                  Comment


                                    #27
                                    Hi George I tried different loads on different panel states. All within limits and using the FMC only to load the aircraft.
                                    there is something up with the trim going out of normal operation and you can see it perfectly while shooting an ILS approach with the autopilot and start adding flaps and lowering the speed to landing speed. Nose will go up, trim will go out of normal settings and the aircraft will be close to a stall on approach. I never use the MSFS loading screen for fuel etc specially not a PMDG aircraft.
                                    hope you guys can nail it down. I can’t really do anymore testing as I have tried many variables with many weights. Same result on final.
                                    Teofilo Homsany

                                    Comment


                                      #28
                                      DDowns You mention to the OP that FSUIPC could be causing imbalance problem but you did not specify exactly what about FSUIPC would be causing it? For myself I use it for the landing gear on the TCA Boeing Yoke due to the issues the 737 has with some controllers and to provide data to third party programs like Smartcars and SimToolKitPro.

                                      If there is a setting or problem with using FSUIPC then shouldn't user be made aware of this so we don't make the same mistake?
                                      Last edited by Wise87; 14May2022, 15:06.
                                      Dan Moore

                                      Comment


                                        #29
                                        Originally posted by Wise87 View Post
                                        DDowns You mention to the OP that FSUIPC could be causing imbalance problem but you did not specify exactly what about FSUIPC would be causing it? For myself I use it for the landing gear on the TCA Boeing Yoke due to the issues the 737 has with some controllers and to provide data to third party programs like Smartcars and SimToolKitPro.

                                        If there is a setting or problem with using FSUIPC then shouldn't user be made aware of this so we don't make the same mistake?
                                        FSUIPC users occasionally experience flight conditions that make the airplane almost uncontrollable. One common scenario is the inability to gain airspeed after takeoff and unable to climb normally.

                                        The first step is to move your FSUIPC.ini file to your desktop and test without it. If the problem goes away then redo your FSUIPC setup because the .ini file became corrupt somehow. If the test doesn't verify that this is the problem then put FSUIPC.ini back to where it was. Something else is the problem.
                                        Dan Downs KCRP
                                        i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 3080Ti

                                        Comment


                                          #30
                                          Originally posted by DDowns View Post

                                          FSUIPC users occasionally experience flight conditions that make the airplane almost uncontrollable. One common scenario is the inability to gain airspeed after takeoff and unable to climb normally.

                                          The first step is to move your FSUIPC.ini file to your desktop and test without it. If the problem goes away then redo your FSUIPC setup because the .ini file became corrupt somehow. If the test doesn't verify that this is the problem then put FSUIPC.ini back to where it was. Something else is the problem.
                                          Thanks for the information.
                                          Dan Moore

                                          Comment

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