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STARs speed constraints

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    STARs speed constraints

    Good evening.
    I have been flying the 737 for the past 2 days and one thing I noticed is that the speed constraints in the STARs are "hard"(at) instead of being at or below.
    For example, on the chart it says 270B but in the FMC it shows 270.
    Is this an ASOBO limitation or the aircraft itself misinterpreting the AIRAC data?
    Last edited by delax95; 13May2022, 00:15.
    Riccardo De Luca

    737CL/NG/MAX rated

    #2
    Hi Riccardo,
    Do you have a Navigraph subscription?
    If not, your NAVDATA in PMDG is going to be out of date.
    In case you have a Navigraph subscription, download "Navdata Center for Windows" from their website. It will seamlessly install current AIRAC navdata to your PMDG 737-700 FMS.
    Last edited by mortenha69; 13May2022, 21:21.
    Kind Regards
    Morten Haughom
    ATO TKI - ENTO -Torp, Norway.
    GS66 Stealth 11UE, Intel [email protected], GeForce RTX 3060, DDR4 3200MHz 2x16GB RAM. Tobii Eyetracker 5. Thrustmaster TCA Boeing Yoke.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by mortenha69 View Post
      Hi Riccardo,
      Do you have a Navigraph subscription?
      If not, your NAVDATA in PMDG is going to be out of date.
      In case you have a Navigraph subscription, download "Navdata Center for Windows" from their website. It will seamlessly install current AIRAC navdata to your PMDG 737-700 FMS.
      Hi Morten, I do have a subscription and the Navdata Center as well, all the AIRACs are updated so the problem is elsewhere, I can't figure out where though.
      Riccardo De Luca

      737CL/NG/MAX rated

      Comment


        #4
        Hi Riccardo,
        Well then I am at a loss here. Send me your route and I'll try it on my system.
        Kind Regards
        Morten Haughom
        ATO TKI - ENTO -Torp, Norway.
        GS66 Stealth 11UE, Intel [email protected], GeForce RTX 3060, DDR4 3200MHz 2x16GB RAM. Tobii Eyetracker 5. Thrustmaster TCA Boeing Yoke.

        Comment


          #5
          Hi Morten,
          I had the problem on basically every route I’ve flown.
          If you wanna try OTGIG 2E arrival in LIPZ it’s quite obvious there.
          I have asked some friends of mine as well and it seems everyone has the same problem.
          Thank you for your help and patience
          Riccardo De Luca

          737CL/NG/MAX rated

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by delax95 View Post
            Hi Morten,
            I had the problem on basically every route I’ve flown.
            If you wanna try OTGIG 2E arrival in LIPZ it’s quite obvious there.
            I have asked some friends of mine as well and it seems everyone has the same problem.
            Thank you for your help and patience
            I had a look at the sidstar file LIPZ.txt (from Navigraph) and specifically the four OTGIG arrivals and all speed constraints are give as AT speeds. I then pulled the LIPZ charts and noted that, as an example, the entry waypoint OTGIG is MAX270 so Navigraph is wrong (not PMDG) and should indicate AT OR BELOW SPEED 270.

            As an aside note, only the B737 FMS will accept speeds like 270B/ in the LEGS pages. Neither 747/777 do if my memory serves me correctly, rather their speed constraints are always AT OR BELOW. I mention this because it's possible that Navigraph is not using AT OR BELOW speed syntax because it causes errors in the other PMDG models.

            Bottom line, I take it as my responsibility to verify all terminal procedures before I fly them. For example, a lot of published procedures will have constraints such as EXPECT 14000 and no EXPECT constraint ever gets into a Navigraph sidstar file. You really want to make sure you add those or you're going to be very very high and unable to achieve a descent path. Same goes for AT OR BELOW speeds, I will modify the 270/ constraint with 270B/ and then fly it as published.

            All of this silliness should go away when we finally get the ARINC424 navdata format.
            Last edited by DDowns; 14May2022, 18:42.
            Dan Downs KCRP
            i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 3080Ti

            Comment


              #7
              Indeed, you have to walk thru every waypoint and edit

              Comment


                #8
                100% agree. ORI6P out of LIME is just another good example. According to chart you have to intercept QDM 067 to ORI but Navigraph just goes dct to ORI without any specific QDM. Big shame.
                Best,
                Nick Harder

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Hirthflieger View Post
                  100% agree. ORI6P out of LIME is just another good example. According to chart you have to intercept QDM 067 to ORI but Navigraph just goes dct to ORI without any specific QDM. Big shame.
                  Holy moly Nick, I've studied ORI69 until my eyes crossed. There is not way to code that DP using the legacy script methods still used by PMDG; however, I'm not sure how to encode it using ARINC 424 specified legs. The problem I cannot see around (or over or through) is the left turn after ME611 to intercept 067 course to ORI. It's not either an AF or RF leg, initially I thought heading to intercept or heading to radial (VI or VR) but there is no heading provided in the procedure and the intercept of that course to ORI is a floating waypoint depending on how speed, turn rate and wind to you might roll out on a North heading before interception or you might still be in the turn when interception occurs.

                  How is this encoded in your experience?
                  Dan Downs KCRP
                  i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 3080Ti

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Well on our company navtech charts it’s a QDM of 067. And that’s what the airplane is doing as well (see picture).
                    But also the first waypoint should be at 1180ft a left then with 185B. The 185B is missing in the coding and the PMDG just wants to do 210kts already.
                    When are we getting the new ARINC 424 format?
                    Attached Files
                    Best,
                    Nick Harder

                    Comment


                      #11
                      This what the PMDG would do instead.
                      Attached Files
                      Best,
                      Nick Harder

                      Comment


                      • DDowns
                        DDowns commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Agree, the left turn after ME611 is not defined in the chart. Left to to what heading, not given. Left turn until intercepting the course to doesn't work because the aircraft has to roll out of the turn before getting to the intercept.

                      #12
                      Originally posted by Hirthflieger View Post
                      Well on our company navtech charts it’s a QDM of 067. And that’s what the airplane is doing as well (see picture).
                      But also the first waypoint should be at 1180ft a left then with 185B. The 185B is missing in the coding and the PMDG just wants to do 210kts already.
                      When are we getting the new ARINC 424 format?
                      QDM or QDR... it's relative LOL. I don't see the speed constraint 185B on the chart. Also missing from the chart is the heading that the aircraft should roll out of from the left turn before intercepting the course to fix. I have no doubt your company has the navdata that makes this work, but I suspect there is a lot of customization going on here and based on operation experience the missing information has been supplemented.

                      I don't know when we will see ARINC 424. PMDG has said they were going to do this maybe four or more years ago and the existing legacy script method is way outdated (obsolete). We are also due updated AFDS LNAV/VNAV that they called LNAV V2.0 before we see the new navdata but last heard they are waiting for Asobo to provide the development tools for C++/WASM that they have assured is coming.

                      Back to ORI6P.... I'd love to see the leg types used if you have access to that data.
                      Dan Downs KCRP
                      i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 3080Ti

                      Comment


                        #13
                        Fo me it’s very clearly defined as 067 inbound. And the aircraft would make a left then after ME611 and intercept that exact course. I can make the turn as such smaller when I limit the speed at ORI to 220B , this is what we usually do.
                        However this is how the data is provided my Navigraph:
                        SID ORI6P RNW 28 TRK 282 UNTIL 1180 FIX ME609 AT OR ABOVE 4000 FIX OVERFLY ME611 SPEED 210 TURN LEFT DIRECT FIX ORINB
                        Best,
                        Nick Harder

                        Comment


                          #14
                          Originally posted by Hirthflieger View Post
                          Fo me it’s very clearly defined as 067 inbound. And the aircraft would make a left then after ME611 and intercept that exact course. I can make the turn as such smaller when I limit the speed at ORI to 220B , this is what we usually do.
                          However this is how the data is provided my Navigraph:
                          SID ORI6P RNW 28 TRK 282 UNTIL 1180 FIX ME609 AT OR ABOVE 4000 FIX OVERFLY ME611 SPEED 210 TURN LEFT DIRECT FIX ORINB
                          That is my point... you make a left turn to intercept 067 inbound but how much do you turn left??? When you do you roll out of the turn and fly straight until you reach the intercept? If I was flying it I with raw data, I would roll out on a heading of 040 to give me about a 30 deg intercept to the 067 inbound course using the ADF gauge. But this is supposed to be RNAV which means the turn is defined and a heading change to a new heading.... that is missing information.
                          Dan Downs KCRP
                          i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 3080Ti

                          Comment


                            #15
                            I know what you mean but I suppose that the estimated speed during the turn and a expected bank angle of 30 degrees makes the rest of the calculation complete.
                            What do you mean by leg type?
                            Best,
                            Nick Harder

                            Comment


                              #16
                              Originally posted by Hirthflieger View Post
                              I know what you mean but I suppose that the estimated speed during the turn and a expected bank angle of 30 degrees makes the rest of the calculation complete.
                              What do you mean by leg type?
                              Every segment of a procedure in ARINC 424 is defined by a leg type. Easy to find with the Google machine. For example something than comes close to our topic is a VI leg, heading to a next leg intercept. This leg type cannot be used because the heading is not provided in the published procedure chart and about four head leg types are ruled out.

                              The navdata defines the procedure such that no such calculations based on speed and wind are necessary.
                              Dan Downs KCRP
                              i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 3080Ti

                              Comment


                                #17
                                Originally posted by DDowns View Post

                                I had a look at the sidstar file LIPZ.txt (from Navigraph) and specifically the four OTGIG arrivals and all speed constraints are give as AT speeds. I then pulled the LIPZ charts and noted that, as an example, the entry waypoint OTGIG is MAX270 so Navigraph is wrong (not PMDG) and should indicate AT OR BELOW SPEED 270.

                                As an aside note, only the B737 FMS will accept speeds like 270B/ in the LEGS pages. Neither 747/777 do if my memory serves me correctly, rather their speed constraints are always AT OR BELOW. I mention this because it's possible that Navigraph is not using AT OR BELOW speed syntax because it causes errors in the other PMDG models.

                                Bottom line, I take it as my responsibility to verify all terminal procedures before I fly them. For example, a lot of published procedures will have constraints such as EXPECT 14000 and no EXPECT constraint ever gets into a Navigraph sidstar file. You really want to make sure you add those or you're going to be very very high and unable to achieve a descent path. Same goes for AT OR BELOW speeds, I will modify the 270/ constraint with 270B/ and then fly it as published.

                                All of this silliness should go away when we finally get the ARINC424 navdata format.
                                Hi Dan,
                                your answer covers pretty much what I was looking for, it’s just the way Navigraph does it at the moment, so not much to do.
                                Of course going through altitude and speed in the charts is what I do normally, hopefully there will be a solution to avoid typing in 250B/ a million times for every approach!
                                Thanks,
                                Riccardo
                                Riccardo De Luca

                                737CL/NG/MAX rated

                                Comment


                                • DDowns
                                  DDowns commented
                                  Editing a comment
                                  Mommy mommy! There are a million cats on the porch. Now Johnny, how many do you see? I guess it's a thousand cats. Honestly Johnny, how many? Okay, there are two cats on the porch mommy.

                                #18
                                Originally posted by DDowns View Post

                                Bottom line, I take it as my responsibility to verify all terminal procedures before I fly them. For example, a lot of published procedures will have constraints such as EXPECT 14000 and no EXPECT constraint ever gets into a Navigraph sidstar file. You really want to make sure you add those or you're going to be very very high and unable to achieve a descent path. Same goes for AT OR BELOW speeds, I will modify the 270/ constraint with 270B/ and then fly it as published.
                                This is what is called good airmanship
                                Last edited by mortenha69; 15May2022, 14:18.
                                Kind Regards
                                Morten Haughom
                                ATO TKI - ENTO -Torp, Norway.
                                GS66 Stealth 11UE, Intel [email protected], GeForce RTX 3060, DDR4 3200MHz 2x16GB RAM. Tobii Eyetracker 5. Thrustmaster TCA Boeing Yoke.

                                Comment

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