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Aborted landing Question

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    Aborted landing Question

    As you know AI traffic is crazy in P3D. I sometimes have a jet crossing in front of me when landing. If that happens as I just hit the runway and need to go around, what is the technique? If I add max power to take off and avoid a collision, I quickly hit 230 kts with flaps still at 30 degrees as they are slow to retract. Is this acceptable. And what speed should I aim for on a missed approach? Also on a missed approach am I handed off to departure or approach.
    Paul Gugliotta

    #2
    PF: Go around flaps 20 (Press TO/GA)
    PM: Positive rate
    PF: Gear up
    PM: Contact ATC
    PF: Fly the aircraft following to the procedure or ATC vector.
    PM: Retract the flap to up position according to the speed.
    Ross Emanuel

    Comment


      #3
      The first flap retraction (from 30 or 25 to 20) is almost immediate, just after decide to go around and press TO/GA. As long as you have any positive rate you'll ask for gear up and flaps 20, even before any significant speed gain.

      After pressing TO/GA you should manage speed with PITCH, so speed should not increase SO fast to 230 as long as you pitch up following the flight director. Of course it will increase, but it shouldn't do it so fast that you can't manage flap retraction.

      Have in mind that you must select any appropriate throttle (i.e. SPEED) or any throttle + vertical profile (FL CH or VNAV) before first level off after going around, so the aircraft will not climb as a rocket beyond the missed approach altitude heading to the space.

      Have in mind, also, that you must ALWAYS be ready to take over controls any time the use of the autopilot may put you in a situation that asks for more workload than manual flying or in a situation you get in trouble with autopilot (specially in a simulator without another pilot to help you). During go around, for example, after pressing TO/GA, I fly manually (with A/T in TO/GA) and, if I don't have time to set up AP properly before first level off, I switch off A/T and reduce thrust a bit to put the aircraft in a smooth climb on the final fase of go around, so I have more time to manage A/P. Sometimes manual flying is easier than fly with the autopilot.

      Best regards,

      Marcelo Monteiro


      Comment


        #4
        One more thing: Once the reversers are deployed, you're committed to stopping. If you tried to go around after you've already deployed the reversers and you have a mechanical failure where one reverser doesn't stow....you're not going to be up in the air for very long.
        Captain Kevin

        Kevin Yang

        Comment


          #5
          Good info. Thanks for the fesponses
          Paul Gugliotta

          Comment


            #6
            Paul,
            I suggest you initially use the Autopilot and Authrottle to practice a few aborted landings so that you can see how the aircaft behaves during a normal Go-around before trying to fly them manually yourself. What you will find when you press TOGA is that the AFDS will apply GA thrust and pitch the nose up to about 15 degrees and control the aircaft's speed between the command speed (CS) and CS +25 Kts. If you happen to reject the landing after touchdown but before selecting Reverse Thrust the Auto Spoilers will retract and the autobrakes will disarm. Whatever you do just avoid pressing the TOGA switches twice because this will give you maximum available thrust.

            Select a missed approach path that is straight ahead with a target level off altitude of say 3,000ft, because this should ease your workload quite a bit, so that when you decide to initiate the go-around all you will need to do is say to yourself "Go-around, Flaps20" and press one of the TOGA switches (I have one of my hardware switches configured to do this). Then select the Flaps to 20 and when you see a positive climb raise the Gear. You can then sit back for a short breather until the aircraft reaches the desired acceleration altitude (usually around 1,000ft AAL). This is where the real fun can start if you are not ready, because when you reach the missed approach altitude or select a different pitch or roll mode, such as HDG and LNAV, or VNAV and FLCH, the AFDS will revert to single channel operation and the aircraft will start to accelerate, so control the speed by reducing thrust as necessary . Try using HDG and FLCH for the flap retraction and watch the speed as you retract the flaps to Flaps 5 in time to turn downwind and attempt another approach. You can set the command speed bug to Flaps 5+10Kts or to the Min manouevering speed if you clean up fully.

            When you feel ready to fly a few manual Go-arounds just bear in mind that the Flight Director will only display commands, so it is important that you program it correctly if you want to follow it.
            Michael Codd

            Comment


              #7
              One very important point to note regarding a rejected landing which has not (I think) been mentioned yet...

              The TO/GA switches are not functional once the aircraft has been below 5R for more than two seconds. In this situation pressing the TO/GA switches will have no effect. This is a common design across Boeing aircraft and caught out the crew of a B777 in Dubai a couple of years ago with dramatic results.

              Instead of the normal Go Around procedure, therefore, there is a Rejected Landing procedure which should be carried out if a go around is required at or after the commencement of the flare.

              Disengage the autopilot and autothrottle, aggressively apply maximum thrust (manually) and verify that the thrust increases. Maintain the current configuration.

              The effect of applying thrust will be to cause the aircraft to pitch up so this effect must be controlled and directional control maintained with wings level.

              When the speed is at or above Vref, rotate to the go around attitude (typically targeting circa 12-15 degrees initially). The F/D pitch guidance is very likely to be invalid at this point and will need to be disregarded.

              Once the aircraft is safely climbing away, then you should revert to carrying out the standard go around procedure (call 'go around flap 20, press either TO/GA switch, set the flap lever to 20 etc as described above).
              Last edited by skelsey; 29Jun2020, 11:33.
              Simon Kelsey

              Comment


              • Michael Codd
                Michael Codd commented
                Editing a comment
                Quite right about the non functioning bit, Simon, although in the real aircraft the rejected landing procedure is identical to the Go-around procedure. In both cases the handling pilot should smoothly and without delay apply Go-around thrust and call (as above) for Flaps 20. As the thrust levers are advanced the G/A switches will become easy to reach and they can be pressed by simply rotating the palm downwards to make contact; even if they are non functional at that point in the standard G/A procedure. The QOTS is a lovely old lady to fly and so there should never be any need to get aggressive with her - or her engines! 😊

              • skelsey
                skelsey commented
                Editing a comment
                Hi Michael - I believe the Rejected Landing procedure as described above was introduced in response to the Dubai B777 crash I referenced. It may be operator-specific (a big airline that you are familiar with!).

              • skelsey
                skelsey commented
                Editing a comment
                Incidentally - something else I should have mentioned which is worth being aware of is that it is possible (indeed almost certain) that a Config Warning will be generated during a go-around where the aircraft touches down, which is an additional distraction that will need to be ignored!

              #8
              Great info. Thanks. I never use autopilot or auto throttles below say 3000 feet. I love doing manual flying as much as possible. I don’t even know where the To/GA cheat click spot is. My Throttletes throttles have these switches but were unassigned. I need to figure how to program them. I should use AP and AT more. But I usually do 2 takeoffs and landings a day all with close hops.
              Paul Gugliotta

              Comment


                #9
                In the FMC, you can set a key command for it, then use FSUIPC to map the switches to said key command. I'm with you there, I try to hand-fly as much as possible. As for the click spot, it's one of the screws on the MCP.
                Captain Kevin

                Kevin Yang

                Comment


                  #10
                  Originally posted by Paulyg123 View Post
                  Great info. Thanks. I never use autopilot or auto throttles below say 3000 feet. I love doing manual flying as much as possible. I don’t even know where the To/GA cheat click spot is. My Throttletes throttles have these switches but were unassigned. I need to figure how to program them. I should use AP and AT more. But I usually do 2 takeoffs and landings a day all with close hops.
                  Paul, in reality it is dangerous to apply takeoff thrust manually unless you are absolutely focused on it. Figure out TOGA and use it at least for your departures. It will simplify things for you, which is always a good thing but especially when you fly multiple legs in a session.
                  Dan Downs KCRP

                  Comment


                    #11
                    Originally posted by DDowns View Post

                    Paul, in reality it is dangerous to apply takeoff thrust manually unless you are absolutely focused on it. Figure out TOGA and use it at least for your departures. It will simplify things for you, which is always a good thing but especially when you fly multiple legs in a session.
                    Paul,

                    It’s definitely not more dangerous, just higher workload. Talking about workload, before GPS, FADEC, A/P or Autothrottle guess how it was done.

                    It’s a common fallacy that you have to be absolutely focused on the engines to have the aircraft do what you want. Get it close enough with a quick scan, I bet you can do within 2-5 percent with just a first glance. Just like flying instruments, you can’t focus on just one instrument for too long. Keep the scan going, keep tweaking the engines and the flying will be ok.
                    Rafael Cordoves

                    Comment


                      #12
                      Originally posted by Icaruss View Post
                      before GPS, FADEC, A/P or Autothrottle guess how it was done.
                      In those days many aircraft were equipped with a voice-activated autothrottle (Flight Engineer)!
                      Last edited by skelsey; 30Jun2020, 05:50.
                      Simon Kelsey

                      Comment


                        #13
                        Originally posted by skelsey View Post
                        . In those days many aircraft were equipped with a voice-activated autothrottle (Flight Engineer)!
                        And I am led to believe they were all 100% reliable provided you fed and watered them!

                        Re: your comment: "Incidentally - something else I should have mentioned which is worth being aware of is that it is possible (indeed almost certain) that a Config Warning will be generated during a (Landing) go-around where the aircraft touches down, which is an additional distraction that will need to be ignored!" Landing Configuration Warnings depend on the aircraft's actual configuration as well as its airspeed (i.e. < or > V1) and how high it is at that moment in time (i.e. still on the ground or back in the air <800ft RA) in order to trigger, so I am wondering what particular config warning are you thinking of?
                        Michael Codd

                        Comment


                          #14
                          Originally posted by Michael Codd View Post
                          Re: your comment: "Incidentally - something else I should have mentioned which is worth being aware of is that it is possible (indeed almost certain) that a Config Warning will be generated during a (Landing) go-around where the aircraft touches down, which is an additional distraction that will need to be ignored!" Landing Configuration Warnings depend on the aircraft's actual configuration as well as its airspeed (i.e. < or > V1) and how high it is at that moment in time (i.e. still on the ground or back in the air <800ft RA) in order to trigger, so I am wondering what particular config warning are you thinking of?
                          I was thinking of a takeoff config warning which will activate if G/A thrust is applied whilst the aircraft is on the ground and the flaps are >20!
                          Simon Kelsey

                          Comment


                          • Michael Codd
                            Michael Codd commented
                            Editing a comment
                            I believe you will find the airspeed also needs to be below V1 for this to happen, otherwise the pilots could be misled into thinking the aircraft is unsafe to commence the Landing Go-around, change their minds and try to stop with potentially disastrous consequences. However, the Flaps >20 will definitely trigger the Landing Config Warning when the aircraft is airborne and the Gear is selected up (i.e. not down and locked).

                          • skelsey
                            skelsey commented
                            Editing a comment
                            That is correct, however in the landing phase I am not sure there will be a valid V1 speed available in the FMS which I imagine will lead to the takeoff config warning activating - there is a specific caution about this in the FCOM for exactly the reason you mention!

                          #15
                          I was taught to plan for a missed approach with an option to land.

                          Yea I know I'm old.
                          Bode Bridges
                          I Earned my Spurs in Vietnam

                          Comment


                            #16
                            Originally posted by Bluestar View Post
                            I was taught to plan for a missed approach with an option to land.

                            Yea I know I'm old.
                            What makes you think being spring loaded to go isn’t currently being taught?
                            Brian Thibodeaux
                            B747-400/8 First Officer
                            Typed MD-80, BE1900
                            ATP, CFI, MEI
                            My Liveries

                            Comment


                              #17
                              It‘s not necessary correct Boeing technique so Boeing pilots, please bear with me. Like Paul I usually approach fully manually. If I have to go around I know that with full flaps my N1 is around 60% and with one flap setting less it’s 50-55% while Take off power with assumed temps is usually between 90 and 98%. So all it takes for a successful simulator single pilot go around is push my hardware throttles around half of the remaining way forward, this results in approximately 85% N1. I also press TOGA for the flight mode to change into GA (in the 737 the autothrottles are off, haven‘t flown the queen for a while) and while the flaps retract I raise the nose to hold Vref + around 15. it‘s not easy as I have no FO but that way it‘s still quite manageable. From there everything else is the same as during a takeoff.

                              The most important thing is simply to think through this every time before you turn final and switch off the AP. Always make sure that your mind is 2 minutes ahead of your aircraft. You‘re the pilot, don‘t let the airplane or the circumstances surprise you. Then you‘ll be fine.
                              i7-6700k, GTX 1080TI, 32GB DDR4 RAM @2666MHz, 4k

                              Marc Ehnle

                              Comment


                              • Ephedrin
                                Ephedrin commented
                                Editing a comment
                                Haha Michael, during the go around I try not to think too much at all but do what I HAVE thought before. But within the next two minutes I usually reach a holding or a vector from where it becomes basically standard again and I can think ahead again.

                                I‘ve flown Short Skyvans for a little more than a year now minus the Covid time and mostly I drop parajumpers. Doing that in 15000ft over the Inn valley east of Innsbruck and then diving at idle 30 degrees nose down at Vne into that valley and land on a 300m pasture definitely requires a plan I‘m not yet doing that alone as I‘m still working on my CPL but there‘s not much time to discuss once you pulled those throttles back

                              • skelsey
                                skelsey commented
                                Editing a comment
                                As ever you are very much on the money with your comments, Marc! One of the most common things we spend a lot of time helping people with as trainers at BAV is planning and projecting, and from a technical/procedural point of view go-arounds are frequently problematic (number one fault: raising the gear before selecting flap and often before positive rate!). I always recommend that the go-around procedure should be fully briefed and rehearsed as a 'touch drill' as part of the Approach Briefing in order to help cement the muscle memory.

                                We refer to three levels of Situation Awareness - Noticing ("oh look, there's a crosswind at our destination"), Understanding ("it's within the crosswind limit so we're OK") and Thinking Ahead ("if it rains/snows will it be within our wet/contaminated crosswind limit?"). Another example might be noticing that it is busy from the R/T - understanding that holding may be required and entering the hold in to the FMS - and thinking ahead by obtaining weather for the destination alternates, preparing the diversion route in the FMS in case it is required and setting a bottom line for when a diversion will need to be initiated.

                                As I often discuss with trainees -- WHAT will be flown is easy -- anybody can recite the text from an approach plate! The key is identifying HOW it will be flown -- including how and where different autoflight modes will be used, gates and targets for configuring the aircraft, bottom lines and anticipation of the 'what ifs' and how they will be dealt with.
                                Last edited by skelsey; 01Jul2020, 08:35.

                              • Ephedrin
                                Ephedrin commented
                                Editing a comment
                                Thanks Simon, indeed, flying the Skyvan with a good instructor has so much influenced my sim behaviour. On the one hand I‘ve become more „aggressive“ in terms of trust regarding the capabilities of the aircraft, on the other habd I‘ce become more sorted and settled. I‘ve learnt to fly on gliders, HK36 and C172 but haven‘t been in the air for more than 10 years for medical reasons.. The sim alone makes you daring, nothing can happen so what ever comes will be dealt with. Like a simple go around or even things like windshears. Then, seeing you drift away from the runway or ballooning you start to panic, slam the throttles forward and suddenly you have to deal with the sheer engine power of an empty 777, see the red area come closer in your A320 and the flaps come up automatically to save the structure and you start to remember what you should do in this type of the many you fly in the sim. Maybe our biggest problem . Real pilot training, all above in challenging terrain like the alps, really makes you calm and think ahead. There is just no time to deal with your approach or with the question of correct aircraft management when you aim for those 200ft over that hill to make the turn over there at 2000ft etc. And you just can’t fly the same way and the same direction the whole weekend when you land on a pasture instead of an airport. The neighbors will go crazy, turbines are loud. But time is money and the engines won‘t be shut down even for refueling. So any briefings are done during the 20 minutes climb as soon as you‘ve cleared the mountains. And then you do what you‘ve briefed with just a little space for flexibility. Transferred to an approach in the 737 or 747 this training gives me the ability to make the best approaches and landings ever, as the airplane always only does what I tell it. The better I prepare it and myself, the better I can execute anything I want or need.

                                Simon, as always thanks a lot for your highly educational input, really appreciated!

                              #18
                              Originally posted by thibodba57 View Post

                              What makes you think being spring loaded to go isn’t currently being taught?
                              Bode Bridges
                              I Earned my Spurs in Vietnam

                              Comment


                                #19
                                OK a little help here:

                                I programmed the TO/GO switch on mt throttles. When I hit that switch I go to 104.8 N1. Do I limit the N1 to a lower value? If yes, how is thatdone. In the FMC I see you can select GA but how do you enter a value?
                                Paul Gugliotta

                                Comment


                                  #20
                                  Originally posted by Bluestar View Post
                                  I was taught to plan for a missed approach with an option to land.

                                  Yea I know I'm old.
                                  That‘s a bit like these Apollo astronauts who were sitting in their capsule on top of a 300ft rocket totally relaxed expecting the start to be cancelled (again) and then being totally surprised when the engines ignite that they would actually really launch into space

                                  not sure if it was Neil Armstrong or Chris Hadfield who told that story but it made me laugh
                                  Last edited by Ephedrin; 01Jul2020, 00:44.
                                  i7-6700k, GTX 1080TI, 32GB DDR4 RAM @2666MHz, 4k

                                  Marc Ehnle

                                  Comment


                                    #21
                                    Originally posted by Paulyg123 View Post
                                    OK a little help here:

                                    I programmed the TO/GO switch on mt throttles. When I hit that switch I go to 104.8 N1. Do I limit the N1 to a lower value? If yes, how is thatdone. In the FMC I see you can select GA but how do you enter a value?
                                    Hi Paul,

                                    Is this on the ground or in the air?

                                    If on the ground (prior to departure) you will get full rated takeoff thrust unless you have entered an assumed temperature in the TAKEOFF REF page.

                                    If in the air, a single press of the TO/GA switch will give thrust and the F/D pitch commands to achieve a 2000 fpm rate of climb. A second press will give full rated GA thrust.
                                    Simon Kelsey

                                    Comment


                                      #22
                                      I am struggling here. In the air, under THRUST LIM page I see 3 options

                                      <GA CLB>
                                      <CON CLB 1>
                                      <CRZ CLB 2>

                                      I read the manual but don't understand how and when to use these options. If I select GA (I assume Go Around) what value is N1 being limited to? Do I tell the 747 what N1 I want, or will the plane tell me what it should be? What is the difference between CLB, CLB 1 abd CLB2. Iyt'll be good to bone up on this before the 737 comes out.
                                      Paul Gugliotta

                                      Comment


                                        #23
                                        CLB 1 has less climb thrust than CLB, and CLB2 has less climb thrust than CLB 1.
                                        Captain Kevin

                                        Kevin Yang

                                        Comment


                                          #24
                                          Originally posted by Paulyg123 View Post
                                          I am struggling here. In the air, under THRUST LIM page I see 3 options

                                          <GA CLB>
                                          <CON CLB 1>
                                          <CRZ CLB 2>

                                          I read the manual but don't understand how and when to use these options. If I select GA (I assume Go Around) what value is N1 being limited to? Do I tell the 747 what N1 I want, or will the plane tell me what it should be? What is the difference between CLB, CLB 1 abd CLB2. Iyt'll be good to bone up on this before the 737 comes out.
                                          What a lot of questions, Paul.

                                          Don't worry about all of these different thrust (or N1) settings, because in the majority of cases and provided you have programmed the FMS correctly you can simply leave the FMC's to work out for themselves what thrust setting to select and display and the four EEC's will automatically control the engines for you with the autothrottle engaged. However, you do need to have another look at the 747-400 FCOM, page 11.32.3, because it explains what the two fixed Derated Climb Thrust settings (CLB 1 and CLB 2) are and how they work. What it doesn't say is that the use of derated climb thrust will increase the total trip fuel, so at some time every real world B744 operator will have evaluated the relative merits of this extra cost against the cost savings on engine maintenance.

                                          Provided the pilots don't override the automatric climb derate selection after takeoff then the thrust used will satisfy several derate objectives. These are a good rate of climb performance without compromising the aircraft's ceiling capabilty and also there will be no thrust lever advance during the transition from takeoff to climb mode. As the aircraft climbs the derated thrust will gradually increase in a linear fashion depending on what the operator has set. For example, when CLB 1 is used it might be linearly increased from 15,000ft upwards to full thrust by 35,000ft; whereas if the aircraft is light enough to use CLB 2 after takeoff the thrust might increase above 25,000ft to CLB 1 by 35,000ft. This type of 'washout' behaviour is one of the options you can pre-select in your PMDG 744 settings in the FMS CDU.

                                          BTW, please treat the B744/-8 and 737 as very different animals and always read the FCOM over and over until you do understand it. And whatever you do, you should not assume that the different engines fitted to these different aircraft types operate in exactly the same way, otherwise you might end up totally confused like the rest of us! LOL
                                          Last edited by Michael Codd; 04Jul2020, 00:15.
                                          Michael Codd

                                          Comment

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