Announcement

Collapse

PMDG Forum Rules

1) SIGN YOUR POSTS. Since 1997, we have asked users to sign their real name, first and last, to all posts in the PMDG forum. We do this in order to keep conversations personal and familiar. You took the time to be here, we want to get to know you. This is one of the few rigid rules that we enforce regularly. We do so because we feel that forums in which users must engage one another personally are generally warmer, more collegial and friendly. Posts that are unsigned will be quietly removed without comment by the moderators, so to make your life easy- we recommend enabling your forum signature so that you never need to remember. Do this by clicking the username pull-down at the top right, then selecting "User Settings." You will find the signature editor on the ACCOUNT tab, about half way down the page. Look for "Edit Post Signature." Be sure to click the "Show Signatures" box.

2) BE NICE. We are all simmers here and no matter our differences of opinion, we share a common love of aviation, computing and simulation. Treat everyone else in the forum with respect even when you disagree. If someone frustrates you, walk away from the conversation or ask for a moderator to get involved. Speaking of Moderators, they prefer not to be treated as "The Thought Police" but if any behavior infringes on the enjoyment of another user or is otherwise considered to be unacceptable in the moderator's judgment, it will be addressed in keeping with our view of ensuring that this forum remains a healthy environment for all simmers.

3) BE LAWFUL: Any behavior that infringes upon the law, such as discussion or solicitation of piracy, threats, intimidation or abuse will be handled unsympathetically by the moderators. Threats and intimidation may, at the moderator's discretion, be provided to law enforcement for handling.

4) BE FACTUAL: When you post, always be factual. Moderators will remove posts that are determined not to be factually accurate.

5) RESPECT COPYRIGHTS: Posting of copyrighted material such as flight manuals owned by Boeing or various airlines is not allowed in this forum. If you have questions related to copyrighted material, please contact a forum moderator for clarification.

6) RESPECT PMDG: We love to hear what you like about our products. We also like to hear what you think can be improved, or what isn't working. Please do tell us and we will always treat your feedback with value. Just be sure to treat the team respectfully, as they do put a significant amount of effort into building and maintaining these great simulation products for you.

7) RESPECT PMDG DEVELOPERS: All of the developers will spend some time here. Given the ratio of developers-to-users, it simply isn't possible for us to answer every post and private message individually. Please know that we do try to read everything, but developer workload is simply too high to manage personal contact with tens-of-thousands of users simultaneously. In most cases, members of the development team will stick to conversations in the forum and will not answer private messages.

8) RESPECT OTHER DEVELOPERS: PMDG has always advocated for a strong development community and we have many friends within this community. Every developer offers something unique that helps to make the simming community larger and more vibrant. We insist that you treat our friends respectfully.

9) RESPECT MODERATORS: Moderators have a tough job, and none of them enjoy having to stomp out negativity. If a moderator has to weigh in to keep a thread peaceful, please respect that effort and refrain from giving the moderator any grief.

10) If you require official support for any of our products please open a support ticket through the support portal, https://support.precisionmanuals.com

11) This forum is designed primarily as a vehicle for the PMDG development team to interact with our customers, and for customers to interact with one another in a manner that is positive, supportive and assists in the general advancement of understanding the simulation and helping to make this and future simulations better. Any other use of this forum is not permitted, including but not limited to discussion of pricing policies, business practices, forum moderating policies, advertising of non-PMDG products, promotion of events, services or products that are not approved in advance by PMDG or any other topic deemed unacceptable by any forum administrator

12) HAVE FUN: This is the whole point of it all.
See more
See less

PMDG744/748: AIRCRAFT OPTION TRACK UP vs. verified airline options in ops center

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    PMDG744/748: AIRCRAFT OPTION TRACK UP vs. verified airline options in ops center

    Pilots,

    I just wonder about the PMDG AIRCRAFT OPTION 'TRACK UP':
    Checking my aircraft downloads of mostly those with verified airline option
    I see that (I think) all chose TRACK UP instead of the HDG mode.

    Actually the non TRACK up mode (HDG) seems to me a better representation of how the aircraft moves forward/sideways in space,
    especially in case of high X/WIND components.

    Why do the airlines opt for TRACK up, does somebody know?

    Thanks in advance.
    Andre(as) Berg --- i7 8700K 12MB 3.7G. MSI Z370 Tomahawk. DDR4 16G. SSD 500G M.2. MSI RTX2080 DUKE 8G

    #2
    I'm not an expert on why this decision is made one way or the other, but to me track up makes a great deal more sense. Since an aircraft moves through a fluid (air) that itself can be moving in any direction, it seems to me that it is more logical to have it set so that the direction the aircraft is actually going is straight up. The direction the aircraft's nose is pointing in isn't as important.
    Tim Lincoln
    My YouTube Channel

    Comment


      #3
      Agree with Tim; however, the same folks that drive on the wrong side of the road actually use HDG Up (BAW).
      Dan Downs KCRP

      Comment


        #4
        Yes, especially in Europe the HDG UP configuration is common. I found out that Lufthansa, KLM, Cargolux and in the past Air France use (used) HDG UP.
        Hendrik Schall

        Comment


          #5
          Yep, I believe BA use HDG up as Dan has said. As far as I know, all Airbus aircraft use HDG up - so some airlines might have gone with that for some sort of commonality, or just because it's their preference.
          Rudy Fidao

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by 19ab67 View Post
            Actually the non TRACK up mode (HDG) seems to me a better representation of how the aircraft moves forward/sideways in space,
            especially in case of high X/WIND components.
            I can't answer your question but I agree!

            Instruments aligned with the aircraft axis makes far more sense to me...
            Simon Kelsey

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Want2BFlyin View Post
              I'm not an expert on why this decision is made one way or the other, but to me track up makes a great deal more sense. Since an aircraft moves through a fluid (air) that itself can be moving in any direction, it seems to me that it is more logical to have it set so that the direction the aircraft is actually going is straight up. The direction the aircraft's nose is pointing in isn't as important.
              Well, exactly, that is my rationale as well:
              The display in HDG up mode shows where the aircraft is pointing to,
              but with X-WINDs it is also moving to the left or right to some degree;
              of course the pilots don't fly truly VFR in cruising altitude, but I stick to the opinion
              that the display in HDG up mode represents better what can be seen outside, does it not?
              Andre(as) Berg --- i7 8700K 12MB 3.7G. MSI Z370 Tomahawk. DDR4 16G. SSD 500G M.2. MSI RTX2080 DUKE 8G

              Comment


                #8
                I can certainly understand your point of view. From the perspective of pilot orientation, it would make sense to have heading up since it would more closely match the outside sight picture. However, I would argue that from the perspective of navigation, track over the ground is more important because that is how you actually get from point A to point B (and in an aircraft you would get to point B relatively quickly). Following the exact same track on the ground on different days will necessitate using different headings to compensate for different wind directions and speeds, but the track over the ground will always be the same regardless of where the nose of the aircraft happens to be pointing.

                I can understand both sides of the discussion, but to me track up makes a lot more sense. I have flown a number of (virtual) aircraft that have used heading up and it works fine, but it isn't my personal preference.
                Tim Lincoln
                My YouTube Channel

                Comment


                  #9
                  Track up vs Heading up is strictly a personal preference, unless the chief pilot has made the decision for you.

                  I am used to track up, and use this way of looking at the world when I want to see where a heading is going to take me as in navigating around a CB. I could care less what the heading is that gets me around the beast, it is the track that counts. I can see the wind effects immediately by simply looking at the top of the display where the heading bug is positioned left or right of track. I don't need the entire display rotated to align with the axis of the aircraft. The heading up mode doesn't represent what you see outside because in any cross wind you are not flying to that point far ahead of your nose but somewhere left or right of your nose, and that is what is displayed with track up on the ND. In a way this reminds me of flying a LOC compared to flying LOC-BC where as in the former one steers the center dot towards the needle and in the latter one you sit on the needle and steers towards the dot.

                  But the switch between the two is easy, and I can fly with either one just as I can fly with single or double cue FD. I even learned how to drive on the wrong side of the road on my half dozen TDYs to England.
                  Last edited by DDowns; 15Aug2019, 17:26.
                  Dan Downs KCRP

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by DDowns View Post
                    Track up vs Heading up is strictly a personal preference, unless the chief pilot has made the decision for you.
                    The heading up mode doesn't represent what you see outside .......... I even learned how to drive on the wrong side of the road on my half dozen TDYs to England.
                    Sorry Dan, but selecting HDG up on the HSI does accurately represent what the pilots are seeing outside directly in front of them, because in a steady state it points in exactly the same direction as the longitudinal axis of the aircraft. What it doesn't do, except in a calm wind or when there is no crosswind when the aircraft's HDG and TRK are normally the same, is represent the actual track of the aircraft. BTW, congratulations on learning how to drive on the correct side of the road! LOL

                    There have been many ‘discussions’ amongst pilots about the pros and cons of having TRK up versus HDG up displayed on the HSI. In the cruise I suppose it probably doesn't matter too much, because the Magenta Track line is always visible in either mode to show you where the aircraft is tracking, so it is always an easy task to deviate around CB’s etc. The aircraft will also normally be navigating on Autopilot with LNAV (and VNAV) engaged. Where the difference between the two settings becomes more interesting is during the take-off and climb and also the descent and approach phases. During these phases of flight ATC will often give Headings to fly, so having HDG up helps to improve situational awareness, because the HSI picture will more accurately reflect what the pilots have set on the MCP, with the HDG Select and HSI’s Magnetic HDG both in agreement with the aircraft’s longitudinal axis.

                    However, where HDG up can become problemmatical is during manually flown approaches with a low cloud base and strong crosswind, because when going visual close to Decision Height it is not uncommon to see the approach lights and runway offset relative to the nose of the aircraft by the amount of drift. It is at this point that the direction the aircraft’s nose is pointing is very important, because if the pilot hasn’t been trained properly or hasn’t anticipated this visual picture correctly, then as the ground comes into view there will be a natural and almost instinctive urge to ignore the ILS Localiser and Glideslope (i.e. the aircraft’s correct track) and aim the aircraft nose towards the runway threshold. The next thing that happens is the aircraft will drift off the centreline and might go high or low during the attempt at a recovery and this can result in an unstable approach and the inevitable go-around – or worse.

                    I may be wrong about this, but I have a feeling using TRK up might be a ‘throw back’ to the differences in teaching basic Crosswind Approach and Landing techniques, because in N.America the wing-low, crossed controls method is apparently always used in primary pilot training. This method compensates for wind from any direction and keeps the aircraft’s longitudinal axis aligned with the runway, so that the same visual references can be used when compared to a normal landing. However, in the UK and Europe the wings-level with offset drift technique is more commonly taught and so having HDG up probably makes more sense.

                    I suppose the setting to use will depend very much on which one we prefer to use when flying our PMDG aircraft, or what the airline (livery) uses as it’s SOP. I have tried both HSI settings in the past and quickly got used to them, but with four low-slung engines and a swept wing I know which one I prefer to use when flying my PMDG 744’s – give me HDG up every time!
                    Michael Codd

                    Comment


                      #11
                      VERY interesting discussion! THANK YOU! I've wondered about this myself, and may try it.
                      Curtis Smith

                      KSUS/1H0

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Michael Codd View Post

                        There have been many ‘discussions’ amongst pilots about the pros and cons of having TRK up versus HDG up displayed on the HSI. In the cruise I suppose it probably doesn't matter too much, because the Magenta Track line is always visible in either mode to show you where the aircraft is tracking, so it is always an easy task to deviate around CB’s etc. The aircraft will also normally be navigating on Autopilot with LNAV (and VNAV) engaged. Where the difference between the two settings becomes more interesting is during the take-off and climb and also the descent and approach phases. During these phases of flight ATC will often give Headings to fly, so having HDG up helps to improve situational awareness, because the HSI picture will more accurately reflect what the pilots have set on the MCP, with the HDG Select and HSI’s Magnetic HDG both in agreement with the aircraft’s longitudinal axis.
                        The real question is what heading are you going to fly if ATC tells the pilot to fly runway heading on departure, or depart a fix/navaid on a heading or asks the pilot "What is your heading?" in preparation for a radar vector.
                        Bode Bridges

                        Comment


                        • Michael Codd
                          Michael Codd commented
                          Editing a comment
                          You should always fly the Heading ATC give you. However, if it is not operationally safe to do so (e.g. because it might take you into a thunderstorm cell) then you tell them and say you are unable to comply..

                          When you are departing a USA airfield and they clear you for take off with "Fly runway heading" then you should pre-select the Runway QDM and carry out the takeoff as normal with only VNAV armed, Then at 500ft you simply press the HDG Select to fly that runway's magnetic direction.

                        #13
                        Originally posted by Bluestar View Post

                        The real question is what heading are you going to fly if ATC tells the pilot to fly runway heading on departure, or depart a fix/navaid on a heading or asks the pilot "What is your heading?" in preparation for a radar vector.
                        I was taught to fly the runway heading on departure if that is the clearance, if there is a strong cross wind ATC is aware of that and has considered that in their clearance. When flying a track and asked by a controller what my heading is I always tell him the heading. He already knows my track from his display, he's probably just asking to gauge the wind correction required for vectors.

                        Here's the question: Flying from home to Redbird Dallas, the Garmin indicates a track of 002 deg. Due to the wind my heading is 358.... so do I fly at even or odd? I was taught, and verified in the books, that it is the heading and not the track that determines the odd/even altitude in the US. Therefore, the C414 will probably be at 16500 that day for the trip.
                        Dan Downs KCRP

                        Comment


                          #14
                          Originally posted by DDowns View Post

                          Dan,

                          Flying from home to Redbird Dallas, the Garmin indicates a track of 002 deg. Due to the wind my heading is 358.... so do I fly at even or odd? I was taught, and verified in the books, that it is the heading and not the track that determines the odd/even altitude in the US. Therefore, the C414 will probably be at 16500 that day for the trip.
                          I think that direction of flight is based on heading not adjusted for winds just as airways are based on magnetic heading.

                          It has been my experience in flying from south Texas to DFW that most flights going north will be even altitude. The one thing I know for sure is that ATC is not bashful in making sure that I am at the correct altitude for direction of flight.

                          Please remember I'm old an easily confused. ROFL

                          Just a bit of trivia Dallas Redbird is now Dallas Executive.
                          Bode Bridges

                          Comment


                          • DDowns
                            DDowns commented
                            Editing a comment
                            It will always be Redbird for me. Silly politicians trying to entice business flights by renaming. Nice tower equipped airport.

                          #15
                          DDowns When I was working on my licenses, I was always taught that cruising altitude was based on course, not heading. If you were to fly the same 002° course every day, you would also use the same cruising altitude regardless of whether the winds are making you use a heading of 358°.

                          This is backed up by 14 CFR 91.159 (regarding VFR cruising altitudes) and 14 CFR 91.179 (regarding IFR cruising altitudes), where both reference a "magnetic course" and don't mention heading at all.
                          Tim Lincoln
                          My YouTube Channel

                          Comment


                          • DDowns
                            DDowns commented
                            Editing a comment
                            I've always gotten this one wrong. Thanks for the reminder.

                          #16
                          Originally posted by Want2BFlyin View Post
                          DDowns When I was working on my licenses, I was always taught that cruising altitude was based on course, not heading. If you were to fly the same 002° course every day, you would also use the same cruising altitude regardless of whether the winds are making you use a heading of 358°.

                          This is backed up by 14 CFR 91.159 (regarding VFR cruising altitudes) and 14 CFR 91.179 (regarding IFR cruising altitudes), where both reference a "magnetic course" and don't mention heading at all.
                          My E6-B says Magnetic Course = Magnetic Heading (not corrected for wind).

                          Yea I know I'm old. ROFL
                          Bode Bridges

                          Comment


                          • Want2BFlyin
                            Want2BFlyin commented
                            Editing a comment
                            In a no-wind situation, then Magnetic Course will be the same as Magnetic Heading. However, once wind is factored in, any heading correction that must be applied in order to maintain the desired course will result in them no longer being the same.

                            It's been a while since I used an E6-B. I wonder if I can remember how it works. It's a bit like riding a bike, right?

                          #17
                          Originally posted by DDowns View Post
                          I was taught to fly the runway heading on departure if that is the clearance, if there is a strong cross wind ATC is aware of that and has considered that in their clearance.
                          Prior to take-off, pre-selecting the QDM (i.e. the magnetic runway direction) is exactly the same as selecting the magnetic runway heading. I said QDM because if I had said heading some bright spark might have corrected for it in a crosswind. LOL

                          Originally posted by DDowns View Post
                          .
                          Here's the question: Flying from home to Redbird Dallas, the Garmin indicates a track of 002 deg. Due to the wind my heading is 358.... so do I fly at even or odd? I was taught, and verified in the books, that it is the heading and not the track that determines the odd/even altitude in the US. Therefore, the C414 will probably be at 16500 that day for the trip.
                          Bit of a trick question this, because much will depend on where you are in the world and at what height and type of airspace you are flying in. However, it is the magnetic track or course that generally determines the odd/even altitudes to use. Although the rules do vary from country to country. Fortunately they are relatively straightforward when operating commercial aircraft like the B744, because under IFR in controlled airspace we usually do as we are told and fly at the altitude or Flight Level ATC gives us (in feet and sometimes in meters)!

                          In your example, Dan, assuming you are flying in the USA under IFR conditions and in uncontrolled airspace above 3,000ft and below 18,000ft altitude, then you should fly at odds thousand feet. If you are flying below 18,000ft and under VFR in uncontrolled airspace then you should be flying at odds + 500ft. (FAA rules 91.159 & 91.179 apply)
                          Last edited by Michael Codd; 17Aug2019, 23:10.
                          Michael Codd

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X