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What changes are coming to navdata in the next PMDG updates?

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    What changes are coming to navdata in the next PMDG updates?

    Hi PMDG,

    Can you tell us more about the Navdata update Robert referred to in his latest updates announcement?


    "use navigation data so that we are finally able to use the modern navdata being provided by Navigraph".

    What sort of changes are we likely to see? What aspects of the navdata from Navigraph are improved?

    Thanks
    Mark


    Mark Aldridge


    #2
    ARINC 424, which is a global standard that defines the data structure and dictionary for a navdata database. Now in use by everyone from GA Garmins to Honeywell FMS in Boeings.

    One can download the current database for free from the FAA but it is in a text format not immediately useable for use in your aircraft. I suspect most US operators buy theirs from Jeppesen and it is very expensive due to the extensive error checking that goes into it's distribution and installation.

    We will be obtaining the navdata from Navdata, who has already been providing data to support other developers for years. PMDG is way behind on this one, in fact the navdata format we currently use is a macro language kind of construct designed by a simulation hobbyist in the 90's. It has never been a close thing to professional navdata.

    It will make flying in an FMS equipped aircraft much more realistic for those that know how the real thing works.
    Dan Downs KCRP
    i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 1080Ti

    Comment


      #3
      Wow! So with the new system we'll have PMDG aircrafts using the actual ARINC 424 format?
      Giovanni D. Tarar
      FAA CPL+IR Single & Multiengine Land
      I love flying when I'm in a bad mood

      Comment


        #4
        biggest change i notice when flying the fslabs a320 (which is arinc424)

        radius-to-fix arcs, and dme arcs are actual arcs not a chain of pseudo-waypoints (or nonexistant altogehter) that we get sometimes in the pmdgs

        transition level/transition alts are coded in and are automaticaly entered when you load a procedure

        another thing (may just be an airbus thing, not sure) is when you select an approach, then select the arrival, the appropriate approach transition(via) is selected automatically if it connects.
        Last edited by kvuo75; 01Aug2020, 14:58.
        Mike Teague - p3dv4.5 - B736 B737 B738 B739 B77L B77W B744 B748

        Comment


          #5
          So then it means RNP AR is coming to the NGXu ? That’d be much welcome. Also what’s new about the FD ? Is it going to lag like the real ones ?

          Eric Blais
          738 RW Driver.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by kvuo75 View Post
            another thing (may just be an airbus thing, not sure) is when you select an approach, then select the arrival, the appropriate approach transition(via) is selected automatically if it connects.
            Could be a software thing, but in the 737 (U13.0) we still have to manually enter the approach transition every time.
            Matheus Mafra

            Comment


              #7
              It also means procedure turns will display appropriately in the CDU and allow you to do some more obscure things. This is the single biggest thing I am eagerly awaiting.
              William Holland

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by DaedalusX View Post
                So then it means RNP AR is coming to the NGXu ? That’d be much welcome. Also what’s new about the FD ? Is it going to lag like the real ones ?

                Eric Blais
                738 RW Driver.
                RSR has previously given us all a brief explanation elsewhere in these forums of what this major navigation update will mean to the performance of all of PMDG's FMS equipped aircraft. It apparently involves a huge software re-write that is still ongoing and when it is eventually finished it should vastly improve the accuracy (and therefore realism) of LNAV/VNAV tracking. This will no doubt also have a positive effect on some other aircraft systems, such as improved AP/FD response times and capture behaviour. Hopefully we won't have to wait much longer.
                Michael Codd

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by kvuo75 View Post
                  biggest change i notice when flying the fslabs a320 (which is arinc424)

                  radius-to-fix arcs, and dme arcs are actual arcs not a chain of pseudo-waypoints (or nonexistant altogehter) that we get sometimes in the pmdgs

                  transition level/transition alts are coded in and are automaticaly entered when you load a procedure

                  another thing (may just be an airbus thing, not sure) is when you select an approach, then select the arrival, the appropriate approach transition(via) is selected automatically if it connects.
                  The labs is not RNP capable, only GNSS. It doesn't display RF legs either. While yes, you can still 'fly' RNP approaches and it will path down (has GP info), it technically still isn't capable. It's also still missing L/DEV.
                  JEFF NIELSEN
                  KMCI
                  https://www.twitch.tv/pilotskcx

                  Comment


                    #10


                    it does indeed display rf legs

                    as in, these show up as big beautiful curves and not 50 wpts spaced a mile apart (or squared off direct legs)



                    kpsprnavz13r.PNG

                    Last edited by kvuo75; 02Aug2020, 19:43.
                    Mike Teague - p3dv4.5 - B736 B737 B738 B739 B77L B77W B744 B748

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by kvuo75 View Post

                      it does indeed display rf legs

                      as in, these show up as big beautiful curves and not 50 wpts spaced a mile apart (or squared off direct legs)



                      kpsprnavz13r.PNG
                      The FSL does not display RF legs. PMDG does. What your showing is an approach plate not what the aircraft displays. Maybe I misread your comments, but I thought you said the bus does show them.
                      JEFF NIELSEN
                      KMCI
                      https://www.twitch.tv/pilotskcx

                      Comment


                        #12
                        yes the bus does show them, i will get a screenshot next time i fly an rnav approach. i think you're mixed up. the pmdg does not show them at the moment, the pmdg will show this approach with about 20-30 pseudo fixes (RF001 RF002 etc or some such.) on those curves

                        the fslabs airbus will show clean curves (and fly them)


                        Mike Teague - p3dv4.5 - B736 B737 B738 B739 B77L B77W B744 B748

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by kvuo75 View Post
                          yes the bus does show them, i will get a screenshot next time i fly an rnav approach. i think you're mixed up. the pmdg does not show them at the moment, the pmdg will show this approach with about 20-30 pseudo fixes (RF001 RF002 etc or some such.) on those curves

                          the fslabs airbus will show clean curves (and fly them)

                          Ok, no....lol, you it have exactly backwards.
                          Last edited by pilotskcx; 02Aug2020, 22:22.
                          JEFF NIELSEN
                          KMCI
                          https://www.twitch.tv/pilotskcx

                          Comment


                            #14
                            i'll get you some screenshots in a bit
                            Mike Teague - p3dv4.5 - B736 B737 B738 B739 B77L B77W B744 B748

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by kvuo75 View Post
                              i'll get you some screenshots in a bit
                              I'll do you better :-)

                              FSLNORF.png
                              JEFF NIELSEN
                              KMCI
                              https://www.twitch.tv/pilotskcx

                              Comment


                                #16
                                I was very surprised PMDG had still yet to adopt ARINC 424, given that they're often considered the golden standard when it comes to study-level sims. Thank goodness it's being fixed!
                                Craig Norman

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by CANorm91 View Post
                                  I was very surprised PMDG had still yet to adopt ARINC 424, given that they're often considered the golden standard when it comes to study-level sims. Thank goodness it's being fixed!
                                  It's probably a bit more involved than people might think. Probably the same reason why FSL hasn't adopted certain things when we just got a S8 revision.
                                  JEFF NIELSEN
                                  KMCI
                                  https://www.twitch.tv/pilotskcx

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by pilotskcx View Post

                                    I'll do you better :-)
                                    told ya

                                    and thats one of the ones where the pmdg actually has the pseudo fixes in it to kinda round it out.. theres a lot of rf legs where its just goes direct and screws up your vertical profile because its that much shorter.
                                    Mike Teague - p3dv4.5 - B736 B737 B738 B739 B77L B77W B744 B748

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by kvuo75 View Post

                                      told ya

                                      and thats one of the ones where the pmdg actually has the pseudo fixes in it to kinda round it out.. theres a lot of rf legs where its just goes direct and screws up your vertical profile because its that much shorter.
                                      No, you said PMDG doesn't display RF fixes and the Labs does. Are those not RF legs being shown in PMDG? Do you see RF legs being displayed in the Labs?
                                      JEFF NIELSEN
                                      KMCI
                                      https://www.twitch.tv/pilotskcx

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by pilotskcx View Post

                                        No, you said PMDG doesn't display RF fixes and the Labs does. Are those not RF legs being shown in PMDG? Do you see RF legs being displayed in the Labs?

                                        umm. those arent RF legs being shown in the pmdg, they are a workaround, using multiple fictional waypoints to kind of approximate a curve.

                                        yes, the fslabs is showing true radius to fix legs. what do you think those curved legs are?

                                        g. Radius to Fix (RF) Leg. An RF leg is defined as a constant radius circular path, around a defined turn center, that starts and terminates at a fix. An RF leg may be published as part of a procedure.

                                        rfleg1.png


                                        god i swear its like bizarro world lately
                                        Last edited by kvuo75; 03Aug2020, 12:21.
                                        Mike Teague - p3dv4.5 - B736 B737 B738 B739 B77L B77W B744 B748

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by pilotskcx View Post

                                          No, you said PMDG doesn't display RF fixes and the Labs does. Are those not RF legs being shown in PMDG? Do you see RF legs being displayed in the Labs?
                                          Mike is correct. FSL is displaying RF legs correctly, PMDG is displaying them using fake fixes "RF01, etc."
                                          Alex Pugh

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Well, I am an idiot...I always thought the 'RF01' were the RF fixes and not approximations. I do understand how the leg works.
                                            JEFF NIELSEN
                                            KMCI
                                            https://www.twitch.tv/pilotskcx

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by pilotskcx View Post
                                              Well, I am an idiot...I always thought the 'RF01' were the RF fixes and not approximations. I do understand how the leg works.
                                              Not an idiot Jeff... but the use of pseudowaypoints for curves has always been a part of this amateurish macro language we've been using for FMS equipped aircraft, and I believe it made possible the development of those FMS equipped aircraft in the 90s. In essence, each segment between the pseudowaypoints are TF (track to fix) legs that the magenta line rendering presents as a curve when applied along an arc. When flown, you'll notice that the aircraft is constantly leveling and then banking into turn to the next pseudowaypoint whereas along an actual RF curve the bank would change only for a change in speed or windage.
                                              Dan Downs KCRP
                                              i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 1080Ti

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Just wonder if I could use realworld navdata (I have access to) for PMDG then?
                                                Our company have some really wonderful RNP-AR approach around some really tough airport that is not in Jeppesen world wide data
                                                ZHU Hai
                                                B737 Ground instructor

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by AngelofAttack View Post
                                                  Just wonder if I could use realworld navdata (I have access to) for PMDG then?
                                                  Our company have some really wonderful RNP-AR approach around some really tough airport that is not in Jeppesen world wide data
                                                  Haha,China!
                                                  Jiekeng Luo

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Is there going to be any conflict between NavBlue and Navigraph? I could possible be wrong, but didn't MS partner with NavBlue for all their AIRAC data? If PMDG is using Navigraph, then having a sub to Navigraph FMS/Chart data is required to utilize the EFB/FMS data in PMDG aircraft is an extra cost since all the latest AIRAC and data is in MSFS already courtesy of MS/NavBlue.

                                                    I never understood the need to have updated CYCLES and routes when the airports are static in the sim. RWY07 at some airport will always be RWY07 at some airport having several approaches. These aren't going to change, why pay to have a different way to get to it? Anyway, that was a very simple example. I have the sub for Navigraph for both FMS and Charts only because I got tired of seeing the "NAV DATA OUT OF DATE" on the FMS (wonder if that wasn't a setup to get people to purchase a sub.)

                                                    I do understand that using pay ware airports would see the need, but I am just curious if the difference is a conflict or will NavBlue be a subscription based model at some point as well. (Then there were two).
                                                    Michael 'Madsoft' Lagow

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Michael, do you fly online on VATSIM/IVAO? Having the incorrect navdata can increase a controller's workload significantly in a busy area. For example, Heathrow has recently had a major update to it's STARs - if you don't have the current ones, then a controller is going to have to do a lot more work with you to get you in than they would otherwise in what's already a busy sector.

                                                      Now, not every airport has updates - I can only speak for the UK but to take Bristol as an example, the SIDs/STARs haven't been updated in a long time so out of date navdata here will be fine.

                                                      Moving to en route - the UK has seen a lot of changes to it's airways as they get moved to RNAV - they may be exactly the same routing, some have changed. What happens if you fly one of the old routes through the Clacton sector (east of London) that has now been split into a number of new airways to provide additional separation and Point Merge procedures for London airports? Again, controller workload increases in a substantially busy sector.

                                                      It's not all about cash - it's about having updated data and procedures.
                                                      Trevor Hannant

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        TrevorHannant I do not use VATSIM. My comparison and question was regrading the use of NavBlue and/or Navigraph.

                                                        I don't fully understand how all these things work, but I basically was wondering if MSFS has NavBlue for it's data and procedures, assuming for the moment that PMDG is using Navigraph for it's EFB and FMS data in MSFS... how does that work, will I need a sub for NavBlue? If not, why would everyone use Navigraph (*not meaning to undermine Navigraph or advocate for it's demise.) Would there be a conflict with routing, planning, etc.?
                                                        Michael 'Madsoft' Lagow

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Michael, I was more answering the middle paragraph about the need to keep up to date, particularly if flying on one of the online networks (not just VATSIM).

                                                          Regarding how it'll work with PMDG - who knows, we'll need to wait until Robert gives us more detail on this as they get close to releasing products. My feeling is that the NavBlue data will be there "in sim" for those using the in sim route planner to give them up to date, accurate route availability plus airport procedures. Whether PMDG leverage that or not, there shouldn't be a conflict between the two as if PMDG opt to continue with Navigraph, then it will simply read it's database of co-ordinates for the different points on your routing as you program it into the FMC (or load via a saved flight plan from and external planning source).

                                                          I don't forsee the demise of Navigraph at this point - there's a LOT or people who will not make the jump to MSFS for one reason or another so will need to keep an alternative navdata source.
                                                          Trevor Hannant

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Moot point. ARINC 424 is a data structure and dictionary standard. Very concise. Basically, with a few minor exceptions depending on version (current version is 18), that data is data regardless of publisher. One caveat, the data is generally distributed in binary format for use in FMS (or Garmin GPS) but it is available in ASCII text, which is how I get it from the FAA's Digital Chart Products website ( https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flig...products/cifp/ ). I have no idea how Navigraph is formatted (binary or text) but it's not an impediment for developers revising products from LM to MS. Don't sweat the small stuff, there are much bigger challenges.
                                                            Dan Downs KCRP
                                                            i7-10700K 32GB 3600MHz 1080Ti

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