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Anyone else not motivated to get the PMDG 748?

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    Anyone else not motivated to get the PMDG 748?

    Been feeling very meh about the whole PMDG 748 release. $70 on an expansion is a little too much for me when I already spent $140 on the 744. I understand they're a company and all, but is this hobby just getting too expensive nowadays?


    I'm not questioning the worth of the 748 or PMDG in general as I am actually a big fan of PMDG and their consistently good products. I've just never felt just "meh" about a PMDG release, and I honestly believe it's due to the price.usps tracking showbox speed test
    Last edited by barkietrin7; 15Jun2020, 07:49.

    #2
    It is totally worth it. It's actually closer to another product than to an expansion pack. Could have easily been sold so. Keep in mind that the 748 is in big parts an entirely different airplane with unique systems and flight dynamics. It's not just an updated flightdeck and visuals. For the casual evening A to B driver who likes to use jump-to-TOD-features it's certainly expensive and PMDG possibly not the right developer. But if you are into systems and learning as well as getting to know an airplane the 748 is a bargain purchase.

    Please note that we all agreed to sign our posts with our full names.
    i7-6700k, GTX 1080TI, 32GB DDR4 RAM @2666MHz, 4k
    Marc Ehnle

    Comment


      #3
      Totally agree with Marc.
      Thimote Brunot
      PMDG 737 & 777

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Ephedrin View Post
        It is totally worth it. It's actually closer to another product than to an expansion pack. Could have easily been sold so. Keep in mind that the 748 is in big parts an entirely different airplane with unique systems and flight dynamics. It's not just an updated flightdeck and visuals. For the casual evening A to B driver who likes to use jump-to-TOD-features it's certainly expensive and PMDG possibly not the right developer. But if you are into systems and learning as well as getting to know an airplane the 748 is a bargain purchase.

        Please note that we all agreed to sign our posts with our full names.
        Totally agree with Marc. The massive differences between 744 and 748 could justify PMDG create a whole different product. Boeing brings to the 748 very high technology standards whereas the 744 begins to look a little bit old (but still beautiful) : adding the ECL, taxi map, efb class 3, partial fly-by-wire, new generation engines, new fmc, VSD, etc, that makes a lot a lot a lot of changes.

        Best regards,
        Last edited by BrunoT; 13Jun2020, 14:01.
        Thimote Brunot
        PMDG 737 & 777

        Comment


          #5
          The 747-8 was actually so complex to develop and had so many differences compared to the 747-400 that they were saying in hindsight, they should have released it as a separate product. They didn't because by that point, they had already announced that it would be an expansion to the -400, so they stuck to it. From what I remember, there was a lot of work that was done to the -400 to make sure it would work as a base pack to the -8.
          Captain Kevin

          Kevin Yang

          Comment


            #6
            I purchased 748 and the 777 kit (have not installed them, yet) when they were on sale. I did it mainly to support PMDG ....that's how much I love the NGXu. :-)
            Ken Carlin

            Comment


              #7
              Pretty much the only things the -400 and -8 have in common is having the little "hump" in the front and 4 engines... ;-)
              Last edited by Anton Vind; 13Jun2020, 15:05.
              Anton Vind
              CPU: i9-9900K, GPU: RTX 2080 SUPER, RAM: 32 GB DDR4 3600 MHz, Drives: 1 TB SSD / 1 TB HDD

              Comment


                #8
                Personally I'd say go for it. Well worth the money and as someone pointed out on another forum, these are possibly the last high-fidelity examples of the aircraft you're likely to see from any developer. Sure, I see other companies working on releases but nothing else that matches the systems depth and accurate performance of PMDG - and really, that's what you're paying for.

                All that aside, it's an absolute monster that dwarfs everything else on the ramp and a lot of fun to fly. Ditto what other have said about the differences from the 747-400 and it's obvious when you fly it.
                Dan Morand
                i7-7700k OC 4.8, 16GB RAM, EVGA GTX 1080 Ti SC2

                Comment


                  #9
                  I agree. I was totally into the 777F. Now I always have a choice of 744F or -8F. Almost always go with the -8F. One reason is I do Long hauls in real time and I love to go as heavy as possible.
                  At the right airport and weather conditions I love it when I am at MTOW 987000 pounds when I line up for takeoff. Awesome.




                  Rob Roberson
                  Rotorcraft-Helicopter
                  SEL-MEL Airplane Instrument

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Everybody's talking about those massive differences between the 400 and the -8. I have only watched some youtube videos and totally failed to see "massive differences". I'm sure this is totally my fault but can anybody explain to me how they actually differ in normal operations?

                    Real pilots tell me they fly mostly the same.
                    Marc Bonaldo
                    Armchair Pilot

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by bonfly View Post
                      Everybody's talking about those massive differences between the 400 and the -8. I have only watched some youtube videos and totally failed to see "massive differences". I'm sure this is totally my fault but can anybody explain to me how they actually differ in normal operations?

                      Real pilots tell me they fly mostly the same.
                      Flight wise is one thing, systems wise is a different story. You have electronic checklists on the -8, which isn't something that's on the -400. You have the EFB on the -8, which is also not on the -400 at the present time (don't know if they plan on adding it in). Pack switches on the -8 are buttons rather than rotary switches as on the -400. Radio panel is completely different as far as how to tune them because on the -400, you rotate knobs to get to the frequency you want. On the -8, you just type it in. Airport moving map on the -8, not on the -400. FMC on the -8 is comparable to that of the 777. Fuel logic is a bit difference since the reserve tanks on the -8 are tied to tanks 1 and 4 instead of 2 and 3 on the -400. Flight control page is new on the -8, rather than having just the arrow indication on the status page of the -400. That's about all I can think of. I'm sure there's more that I haven't thought of.

                      Captain Kevin

                      Kevin Yang

                      Comment


                        #12
                        And that's just on the inside. On the outside, the airplane has a completely new wing and engines. The GEnx engines are a major change in operations, but the new wing, while looking similar from a distance, is totally new with a completely different way of being built over the original 747 wing. They also have new flaps and leading edge devices. This results in a fairly different handling airplane than the 747-400.

                        Also, the GEnx has more derate and flex options than the older engines, including the "Q-Climb" option which is an enhanced way of complying with various Noise Abatement procedures while still ensuring sufficient power with the higher weights of the 747-8.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Captain Kevin View Post
                          Flight wise is one thing, systems wise is a different story. You have electronic checklists on the -8, which isn't something that's on the -400. You have the EFB on the -8, which is also not on the -400 at the present time (don't know if they plan on adding it in). Pack switches on the -8 are buttons rather than rotary switches as on the -400. Radio panel is completely different as far as how to tune them because on the -400, you rotate knobs to get to the frequency you want. On the -8, you just type it in. Airport moving map on the -8, not on the -400. FMC on the -8 is comparable to that of the 777. Fuel logic is a bit difference since the reserve tanks on the -8 are tied to tanks 1 and 4 instead of 2 and 3 on the -400. Flight control page is new on the -8, rather than having just the arrow indication on the status page of the -400. That's about all I can think of. I'm sure there's more that I haven't thought of.
                          Thank you for taking the time to write all this.

                          But basically that does look like no significant operational differences to me. Whether the radios and packs use buttons or knobs/levers really makes no difference to me. Checklists are nice to have but I can have a checklist on a second screen anyway, and it's definitely not an operational difference. The EFB and moving airport map are the only additons that would be quite nice but in the end I'd probably not use them because again: Navigraph on my second screen is a bigger and more convenient display.
                          Marc Bonaldo
                          Armchair Pilot

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I bought it on day one and have not regretted it once. The poor -400 hasn't seen many flight hours since...
                            Sander Rutte

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Been using the -8F a lot flying cargolux and cathay pacific routes.
                              Moses Velasquez

                              Comment


                                #16
                                The 748 is more like a 777 wrapped in a 747 shaped body with two extra engines. You won't regret it.
                                Jude Bradley
                                System specs: Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, i9-9900KF Gigabyte Z390, RTX-2070, 32GB RAM Prepar3D V5 X-Plane 11.50

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by barkietrin7 View Post
                                  Been feeling very meh about the whole PMDG 748 release. $70 on an expansion is a little too much for me when I already spent $140 on the 744. I understand they're a company and all, but is this hobby just getting too expensive nowadays?


                                  I'm not questioning the worth of the 748 or PMDG in general as I am actually a big fan of PMDG and their consistently good products. I've just never felt just "meh" about a PMDG release, and I honestly believe it's due to the price.
                                  I'll agree with you since nobody else did. More consumer friendly pricing would have allowed you to purchase either one for $140 then the other for $70 (obviously that doesn't help in your case since you already purchased the -400). That way if you could only afford one, it would be your choice. In defense of PMDG though, not only are the products extremely detailed and accurate but they are supported with frequent updates. Way too many flight sim developers make poor efforts then stop developing entirely even though glaring bugs still exist. Yes it is expensive, but in this case you really do get what you pay for.
                                  David Eriksson

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by bonfly View Post

                                    Thank you for taking the time to write all this.

                                    But basically that does look like no significant operational differences to me. Whether the radios and packs use buttons or knobs/levers really makes no difference to me. Checklists are nice to have but I can have a checklist on a second screen anyway, and it's definitely not an operational difference. The EFB and moving airport map are the only additons that would be quite nice but in the end I'd probably not use them because again: Navigraph on my second screen is a bigger and more convenient display.
                                    it always depends on what you want to do. Different radio design is an optical change, maybe easier to use, some might say they preferred the turn knobs. If you (or someone else ) are a guy who wants to hop into the airplane, do a flight across the ocean where you need a long haul aircraft because of the range then I guess the -400 only is just as good as the 777 or the 787. If you want a 747 and don't really care about what's under the hood then I guess the 744 is a great addon and certainly will guarantee a LOT of fun and that's totally fine. The real differences become important as soon as you really want to studyand learn (FCOM, FCTM, QRH) the aircraft. Doing abnormals, emergencies, system failures... is totally different on every model. Turn off an engine and you'll notice it immediately. PMDG offer incredible system depth and that is where the differences are.

                                    Checklists are nice to have but I can have a checklist on a second screen anyway
                                    This sentence as a small example. The 744 is an airplane that flies and fails. When it fails you manage the problem with QRH/checklists on your lap. The 748 on the other hand guides you through the failure management. It's far more complex than that but this is where it just starts. It's a different airplane, as simple as that. maybe comparable with 757 and 767 or 777 and 787, DC10 and MD11. They share a type rating and some similarities but are actually entirely different.
                                    i7-6700k, GTX 1080TI, 32GB DDR4 RAM @2666MHz, 4k
                                    Marc Ehnle

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Ephedrin View Post

                                      it always depends on what you want to do. Different radio design is an optical change, maybe easier to use, some might say they preferred the turn knobs. If you (or someone else ) are a guy who wants to hop into the airplane, do a flight across the ocean where you need a long haul aircraft because of the range then I guess the -400 only is just as good as the 777 or the 787. If you want a 747 and don't really care about what's under the hood then I guess the 744 is a great addon and certainly will guarantee a LOT of fun and that's totally fine. The real differences become important as soon as you really want to studyand learn (FCOM, FCTM, QRH) the aircraft. Doing abnormals, emergencies, system failures... is totally different on every model. Turn off an engine and you'll notice it immediately. PMDG offer incredible system depth and that is where the differences are.



                                      This sentence as a small example. The 744 is an airplane that flies and fails. When it fails you manage the problem with QRH/checklists on your lap. The 748 on the other hand guides you through the failure management. It's far more complex than that but this is where it just starts. It's a different airplane, as simple as that. maybe comparable with 757 and 767 or 777 and 787, DC10 and MD11. They share a type rating and some similarities but are actually entirely different.
                                      Thanks for expanding on that. Gave me something to think about. Maybe I should play with failures more and not just do normal procedures.
                                      Last edited by bonfly; 13Jun2020, 22:16.
                                      Marc Bonaldo
                                      Armchair Pilot

                                      Comment


                                      • azylman1
                                        azylman1 commented
                                        Editing a comment
                                        Failures make the flying fun! I do random failures set at 3 per 10 hours. I like to do flights in real time and I’ve had some real fun managing very interesting failures. This is where your flight planning, systems knowledge, and manual familiarity come out to humble you, and make you better.

                                      #20
                                      It seems that any "subtle" differences between the -400 and the -8, are not PMDG's fault. They are Boeing's, arent they?

                                      PMDG faithfully models what is out there.

                                      One could argue that buying any expansion aircraft of any base pack aircraft, is "not worth it, because the operational differences are not significant". In some of them, even the cockpit is the same!

                                      And, there is always an easy solution to this issue. If one strongly believes that the model will not be fun to own and operate, then the best advice is, obviously, not to buy it!

                                      Roberto
                                      Roberto Stopnicki
                                      Toronto, Canada

                                      Comment


                                        #21
                                        Originally posted by stopnicki View Post
                                        It seems that any "subtle" differences between the -400 and the -8, are not PMDG's fault. They are Boeing's, arent they?

                                        PMDG faithfully models what is out there.

                                        One could argue that buying any expansion aircraft of any base pack aircraft, is "not worth it, because the operational differences are not significant". In some of them, even the cockpit is the same!

                                        And, there is always an easy solution to this issue. If one strongly believes that the model will not be fun to own and operate, then the best advice is, obviously, not to buy it!

                                        Roberto
                                        I certainly wasn’t blaming PMDG for anything. I very much appreciate people’s replies to my post about operational differences.

                                        I don’t doubt it’s worth the price given the considerable effort PMDG put into the expansion. I am merely unsure if it’s worth it for me personally. I’ve now seen some good reasons for why it actually might be and I’ve thanked people for that.

                                        In essence I’m not sure there’s any evident good reason for your passive-aggressive tone. Of course I won’t buy it if I think it’s not worth it for me personally but I’m actually open to changing my mind and pretty much have.
                                        Marc Bonaldo
                                        Armchair Pilot

                                        Comment


                                          #22
                                          Originally posted by tallpilot View Post
                                          I'll agree with you since nobody else did. More consumer friendly pricing would have allowed you to purchase either one for $140 then the other for $70 (obviously that doesn't help in your case since you already purchased the -400).
                                          If the -8 had been sold as a stand-alone product rather than as an expansion, I don't know if it would still be $70. I'm guessing it would have ended up being more at that point. But that said, I think there was a lot more work that went into the -8 when working off the -400 base pack than there was for the 777-300ER going off the -200LR base pack or the 737-600/-700 going off the -800/-900/-900ER base pack, given those expansion packs share the same flight deck and systems as their respective base packs with the main difference being aircraft size.
                                          Captain Kevin

                                          Kevin Yang

                                          Comment


                                            #23
                                            Marc et al-

                                            I’ll stipulate to a bit of bias, however, when it comes to ROI there are very few things in my life that compare to the many hours of educational enjoyment I derive from any PMDG acquisition. There are countless meals and bottles of wine I’ve paid more for and cannot recall. The PMDG aircraft have each made indelible impressions on me, and provided, and continue to provide hour upon hour of superlative experience.

                                            My heart belongs to the 747-436, however, I cannot help being impressed with the differences between the two. The 747-8 has kept all the grace and delight of her older sister, whilst adding tech and performance galore. They are two similar, yet very different siblings, and my flight sim experience would be lessened without either.

                                            In these heretofore unimaginable times, being able to explore, discover and revel in the differences betwixt the two may indeed be a welcome respite, far from the madding crowd. As long as it fits your purse strings, I would encourage that exploration.

                                            Again, I am a trifle biased as many hours of sweat equity have flowed through her hydraulic lines

                                            Be safe, and be well- C
                                            Last edited by cavaricooper; 14Jun2020, 12:21.
                                            Best- Carl Avari-Cooper

                                            Comment


                                              #24
                                              I have to agree that the 747-8 is not a relatively easy upgrade from 747-400s as for exemple the 777-200 to its cheaper expansion pack, 777-300ER.

                                              I recently made the transition from the A320 to the A321 in real life, and took me almost 4 weeks of training, even the A321 looking just a stretched A320 (and it is for the most part).

                                              The -8 is a modernized version of the -400s: new systems, new wings, new engines, EFB. It really depends on how deep you want to go with the product.

                                              Two things to consider to a sim user more concerned in the experience of flying than the aircraft it's flying with:
                                              • both -400 and 8 are used for the same purposes with almost the same capacity(not fuel consuption, maintenance, etc).
                                              • The cockpit and flight caracteristcs of older and newer versions of any aircraft are designed to feel almost the same to reduce the expense of pilots training, but that doesn't mean that there is no difference under the hood (and it is under the hood where PMDG shines), so besides the less worned textures on -8, things should be positioned almost the same way as on -400s, and so its flight behavior (not performance).
                                              This is why you don't feel too confortable with the expansion, maybe.

                                              From a real life pilot and a more in depth simmer perspective (or in a 747-8 lover perspective) the expansion worth its price relation with the base package. The product is different from it's base package and it is well done. Both in visuals and systems.

                                              -----------------------------------------
                                              Luiz Monteiro
                                              A321 FO and Senior Pizza Eater

                                              Comment


                                                #25
                                                Yes me. I would never fly it and it will collect dust. Just like the qw787 and the 777 did but the 737 didnt. All personal preference and you're not alone on this one
                                                Alex Kulak
                                                PMDG Studier and flyer

                                                Comment


                                                  #26
                                                  Originally posted by Captain Kevin View Post
                                                  If the -8 had been sold as a stand-alone product rather than as an expansion, I don't know if it would still be $70. I'm guessing it would have ended up being more at that point. But that said, I think there was a lot more work that went into the -8 when working off the -400 base pack than there was for the 777-300ER going off the -200LR base pack or the 737-600/-700 going off the -800/-900/-900ER base pack, given those expansion packs share the same flight deck and systems as their respective base packs with the main difference being aircraft size.
                                                  I believe David was proposing the idea of making the 744 and 748 of separate 140$ products and allow maybe 70$ upgrade between each other. Not say it is easy to do or it should have been done for the 747 line, but I can agree with the idea from a consumer point of view, as (perhaps an unpopular opinion) I'm not too much into 744 but more on 748 (and the classical -100/200/300/SP), if I get the 744 just for the 748, the (perceived) price for 748 would be 210$ (140$ 744 + 70$ expansion) vs 140$ had it been a separate product.

                                                  Again, not easy for development, and may even an unpopular opionion, but as I haven't seen it being discussed before, I feel it's good to mention it here in the forum, perhaps for consideration for future product lines (e.g. DC-10 vs MD-11
                                                  Last edited by Mike1992; 14Jun2020, 08:53.
                                                  Yuchen LENG

                                                  Comment


                                                  • tallpilot
                                                    tallpilot commented
                                                    Editing a comment
                                                    Correct, thank you.

                                                  • Kevin Hall
                                                    Kevin Hall commented
                                                    Editing a comment
                                                    Having multiple base packs sounds like a recipe for disaster. Much more development and testing, not just for launch but for every update. The 744 and 748 would have to be designed and licenced both as a base pack and an expansion. The only practical way it could work would be to make them as two separate products, but price the second purchase as an expansion.

                                                  #27
                                                  After hesitating a lot I finally bought it some time ago when it was discounted. However I never really made a single flight with it : But that is because of the VC geometry being wrong, something which is a no go for me personally, but obviously not necessarily for others. Another thing is an active thread about its possibly questionable takeoff performance which I am recently following with certain interest without having tested it myself.

                                                  So If you dont care a lot about VC geometry I doubt you will be disappointed. Its a great plane and a great simulation and worth its money as all PMDG products I know so far IMHO.

                                                  best regards
                                                  Last edited by Sekkha; 14Jun2020, 10:27.
                                                  Manolo Ruiz Carrió

                                                  Comment


                                                    #28
                                                    I'm very interested in the 747-8i, but not in the 744. Too bad the former is not available as a stand-alone package.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #29
                                                      Not that this expands on anything already discussed here, just a quick thank-you because I've been wondering all morning what to fly for my one flight of the week (Sunday) that can be as long as I want. And after reading this thread again, well... load up the 8! We're going to Asia
                                                      Dan Morand
                                                      i7-7700k OC 4.8, 16GB RAM, EVGA GTX 1080 Ti SC2

                                                      Comment


                                                        #30
                                                        For me, the 747-8 was a must have. The 737 is an iffy add n for me unless the MAX comes out.
                                                        Paul Gugliotta

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