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“This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys,”

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    “This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys,”

    https://www.aol.com/article/finance/...shed/23898433/
    Kind regards Alex Nicolov
    "You can't make a difference unless you upset at least one."
    [email protected] GHz, Nvidia RTX 2080 Ti, DDR4 3200 64GB

    #2
    I think what most people don't realize is that with the greed culture so prevalent in modern American mega-corporations, Boeing CEO's and board members could care less about quality or safety. The singular goal of these profit mongers is to do whatever it takes to drive up stock prices and increase profit margins to the maximum extent possible for a quick payout while at the same time sacrificing the future of the company. Safety and design integrity are both liabilities towards this goal, as is long-term profitability and the future viability of the company itself. It's not that Boeing engineers can't produce a successful, safe, cost effective 737 design; rather, engineers are purposely hobbled by management who's only priority is reduced production costs and maximum profitably in the short term.

    Case in point: Recently 'fired' Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg walks away from the rubble with a cool $60,000,000 dollar payout. I guess he'll file for unemployment now? He could care less if Boeing were to go bankrupt; the company has served it's purpose for him and he's quite comfortably set for life now. Same with all the current Boeing board members and the new replacement CEO. Nothing will ever change until stockholders hold these people accountable and stop the madness by voting them out. The 737 Max is a huge disaster for the company, but the shenanigans that precipitated this crisis will nevertheless make the elite few at the top quite rich.

    Want to stop this once and for all? Put a senior Boeing engineer in charge of the company. Otherwise, I would advise investing in Airbus stock as they slowly consolidate more and more of the world airline market share.
    Last edited by Aaron Cumberland; 11Jan2020, 02:48.

    Comment


    • KVSandleben
      KVSandleben commented
      Editing a comment
      That is amplified by the american approach to product safety. You are more or less allowed to release everything onto the market without proper scrutiny first. You will just have to pay crippling damage fees if someone gets hurt by your product.
      I prefer the european approach were products have to be tested extensively before they are approved to be sold.

    #3
    The world is out of balance and its innocent that suffer and or are killed while the fat cats get fatter, 60 million what a joke
    Wayne Such

    Comment


      #4
      Originally posted by Swaluver88
      Who cares. The media needs to stop reporting and everyone needs to get along now and get the plane back in there. That's the solution. If the media keeps plucking for stories and bla bla the plane will never get ungrounded or it will take twice aslong. This is problem with society. Everyone would rather pick and find things wrong instead of working on the major problems to get the plane back up in the air. It's annoying this whole thing is annoying now
      Couldn't agree more Alex.
      Michael Sill

      Comment


        #5
        Absolutely agree alex the max needs to come back
        Wayne Such

        Comment


          #6
          Originally posted by Jetman View Post
          Absolutely agree alex the max needs to come back
          I will assume all of you guys will volunteer to be passengers on the first 737 Max to take flight again?

          Comment


            #7
            Yep i would when it returns
            Wayne Such

            Comment


              #8
              Avsim tried to shut down a thread on this story due to inappropriate language in the report.
              David Porrett
              Sea Pilot
              CPL, ME, CFI, IFR
              Mooney M20M (G500/GTN)

              Comment


              • Alex
                Alex commented
                Editing a comment
                Yes, I replied to Jim Young whatever's his name is about his out of control policing and censorship and he couldn't debate it resulting in shutting down the thread. Another snowflake and money donor oriented individual.
                Avsim became another unfriendly place and full of people looking to pick a fight is you have another opinion.
                They became like 'Pravda", a news organization sponsored by the totalitarian people.

              • Kevin Hall
                Kevin Hall commented
                Editing a comment
                Alex, if you used trigger words like snowflake on Avsim then I'm not surprised Jim Young shut the thread down.

              • Alex
                Alex commented
                Editing a comment
                Kevin, I just used it here.
                Apparently people became so fragile in our days that whatever we say is twisted always in the wrong way and most important people cannot handle the truth anymore as harsh it might be.
                As far as I can tell (without being misunderstood) "snowflake" is not a forbidden word anywhere or especially on Avsim.
                And by the way, if someone will call me a snowflake, let it be, I don't take it as an insult and get bent out of shape just for that. Again, if we look to find something for sure will find it.

              #9
              Originally posted by Swaluver88
              Who cares. The media needs to stop reporting and everyone needs to get along now and get the plane back in there. That's the solution. If the media keeps plucking for stories and bla bla the plane will never get ungrounded or it will take twice aslong. This is problem with society. Everyone would rather pick and find things wrong instead of working on the major problems to get the plane back up in the air. It's annoying this whole thing is annoying now
              Traumatic, scandalous headlines is what sells and what people want.This bitching about Boeing won't stop anytime soon...
              STEFAN ĐORĐEVIĆ

              Comment


                #10
                Originally posted by Swaluver88
                The media needs to stop reporting
                Yes, that's definitely the answer. Much better for us all to live in blissful ignorance whilst governments and those running major corporations get on and do whatever they want without fear of scrutiny....
                Simon Kelsey

                Comment


                • Michael Codd
                  Michael Codd commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I didn't know you had a BIG Brother, Simon! LOL

                #11
                Originally posted by Aaron Cumberland View Post

                I think what most people don't realize is that with the greed culture so prevalent in modern American mega-corporations, Boeing CEO's and board members could care less about quality or safety. The singular goal of these profit mongers is to do whatever it takes to drive up stock prices and increase profit margins to the maximum extent possible for a quick payout while at the same time sacrificing the future of the company. Safety and design integrity are both liabilities towards this goal, as is long-term profitability and the future viability of the company itself. It's not that Boeing engineers can't produce a successful, safe, cost effective 737 design; rather, engineers are purposely hobbled by management who's only priority is reduced production costs and maximum profitably in the short term.

                Case in point: Recently 'fired' Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg walks away from the rubble with a cool $60,000,000 dollar payout. I guess he'll file for unemployment now? He could care less if Boeing were to go bankrupt; the company has served it's purpose for him and he's quite comfortably set for life now. Same with all the current Boeing board members and the new replacement CEO. Nothing will ever change until stockholders hold these people accountable and stop the madness by voting them out. The 737 Max is a huge disaster for the company, but the shenanigans that precipitated this crisis will nevertheless make the elite few at the top quite rich.

                Want to stop this once and for all? Put a senior Boeing engineer in charge of the company. Otherwise, I would advise investing in Airbus stock as they slowly consolidate more and more of the world airline market share.
                I fully agree on Your opinion.
                What we have seen at Boeing is just what has happened in all other industries.
                Companies are run by people solely looking at excel spreadsheets and with little knowledge about what kind of industry they actually aree dealing with.
                These CEO's and board members tell that their wages are so high due to the high responsibility. But what we see is that they never really get accounted for their responsebility. Most often they are dismissed, or walk by themself, but with an extreme golden handshake.
                If Boeings CEO and the boardmembers from the start would risc to be put into a real prison, if they fail, like we have seen Boeing has done, then I´m sure they would run their business quite different.
                I´not one who goes out demonstrating, but I do understand why f.ex the Yellow shirts in France, as well as people elsewhere act like they do. The wealthiest and most powerfull people live in a total different world than the normal people. Different rules and laws it seems and the only connection between is money and lies.
                This does not only hold true for Boeing. This time it was Boeing. Next time might well be Airbus, Mercedes, General Mptors or Microsoft.
                Finn Jacobsen
                PC Spec.: i7 3770 3.4 Ghz, 16GB RAM, Nvidia GTX 960 4 GB, Windows 7 Home Edition

                Comment


                  #12
                  Well said skelsey.

                  The 737 Max will fly again when the FAA say so, not before. The scandal over certification of the aircraft has uncovered all kinds of issues which must be addressed.

                  Comment


                  • Ephedrin
                    Ephedrin commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Is the FAA still so much more trustworthy?

                  • Kevin Hall
                    Kevin Hall commented
                    Editing a comment
                    The FAA is certainly not without fault and there should be an enquiry into the actions of the FAA in colluding with Boeing over this and how self certification should be supervised. Self certification isn't new and will probably continue, but how to ensure that mistakes aren't made? It could be argued that the FAA is being over cautious now in extending the grounding. However it is under enormous pressure to get this right from the public, airlines and other regulators. I think the FAA is quite rightly taking its time, making it clear it isn't going to allow Boeing to set the timescale. So I think its eventual decision on permitting the Max to fly again will be totally trustworthy.

                  #13
                  It was a pretty bold thing to put that clowns comment on company owned servers. Where I work, we can be disciplined for bashing the firm. So, we don't do it.

                  I dug into exactly what has changed since the original MCAS design, and yes it is now, as it should have been from the beginning. But looking at the changes implemented, I wouldn't have any reservations about flying on it.

                  Mark

                  Comment


                  • Alex
                    Alex commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Funny place to work for.
                    This PC society is more concerned about words versus killing people and rewarding people with millions for wrongdoing.
                    And people working there were afraid of being disciplined for taking a stand.
                    I hope that they will think carefully from now on.
                    Just do yourself a favor, look at the wreckage again and be honest with you if is ok with this mentality "So, we don't do it" because I can be disciplined.

                  #14
                  The Max story is going to be taught in business schools - it's equivalent to The Challenger Launch Decision (great book, BTW), a classic case study in how an organization betrays its culture and loses its way. It happens initially in small, incremental moves. By the time anyone notices, it's often too late.

                  And to those who complain about negativity and picking at things and let's get the plane back into the air - no, that's not how safety ought to work. The way to react to a catastrophic accident is to examine it in depth, analyze it, learn from it and put reforms in place to make sure it never happens again. This is true of organizations as well as airplanes that are destroyed when the focus on safety is lost. Cheerleading doesn't support safety - quite the contrary.
                  The Challenger Launch Decision: Risky Technology, Culture, and Deviance at NASA, Enlarged Edition [Diane Vaughan] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. <DIV>When the Space Shuttle Challenger exploded on January 28, 1986, millions of Americans became bound together in a single
                  Last edited by Alan_A; 12Jan2020, 23:13.
                  Alan Ampolsk
                  __________________________________________

                  "Ah, Paula, they are firing at me!" -- Saint-Exupery

                  Comment


                    #15
                    Originally posted by Alan_A View Post
                    The Max story is going to be taught in business schools - it's equivalent to The Challenger Launch Decision (great book, BTW), a classic case study in how an organization betrays its culture and loses its way. It happens initially in small, incremental moves. By the time anyone notices, it's often too late.

                    And to those who complain about negativity and picking at things and let's get the plane back into the air - no, that's not how safety ought to work. The way to react to a catastrophic accident is to examine it in depth, analyze it, learn from it and put reforms in place to make sure it never happens again. This is true of organizations as well as airplanes that are destroyed when the focus on safety is lost. Cheerleading doesn't support safety - quite the contrary.
                    Another great one is Truth, Lies, and O-Rings by Allan McDonald, the MTI engineer who revealed the truth about the pre-launch call between MSFC and MTI to the Rogers commission. Its funny how the bean counters don't seem to get the fact that any profits ill gained through shortcutting quality will be more than lost in the inevitable catastrophe that will occur.

                    https://www.amazon.com/Truth-Lies-Ri...=UTF8&qid=&sr=
                    Last edited by JB3DG; 13Jan2020, 07:45.
                    Jonathan Bleeker

                    Comment


                      #16
                      Originally posted by JB3DG View Post

                      Its funny how the bean counters don't seem to get the fact that any profits ill gained through shortcutting quality will be more than lost in the inevitable catastrophe that will occur.
                      I believe it is more complicated than short cutting quality. It has to do with process and it is the process that ensures quality while also meeting design and safety goals. I also believe that in the case of Boeing that the McDonnel Douglas culture didn't have to place a high value on stakeholders because their primary market was the government. They made their money through political contributions, lobbying and bidding low. The Boeing culture placed a high value on the stakeholder, which includes the flying public, regulators, pilots and is a much broader audience than stockholders. Boeing lost track of the stakeholders.

                      Dan Downs KCRP

                      Comment


                        #17
                        JB3DG - Didn't know about that book. I'll definitely check it out.

                        DDowns - It's not only Boeing. Shareholder capitalism, as it's known, first became a thing in the late 1970s, and 20-30 years ago became the dominant idea in business. It says that a company's highest priority - in fact, its only priority - is to return value to investors. Everything else - customer relations, employee relations, community relations - is secondary, if it matters at all. The effect is that financial engineering dominates everything else, and financial engineers rise to the top, pushing aside disciplines like engineering that have domain-specific knowledge.

                        I don't have an engineering background but I lived through the process in professional services. I was part of the management of a privately held public relations firm that was bought by a big publicly held ad agency holding company. The new ownership bought us for our financial performance and didn't know how we achieved it - and when we told them, they weren't interested. They started showing up once a month to tell us how good our profit margins were - and could we possibly do two points better next month? Because that's what they'd forecast and now they needed to deliver. Oh, and could we possibly lay off some more people to cut costs? Within a very short period of time, we realized that we'd stopped focusing on client work and were instead spending all our time managing spreadsheets and going to endless rounds of meetings trying to save at least some of our people. But we lost a lot of good people. Needless to say, quality fell apart, the client exodus started, and the staff exodus followed. Today, the firm is still out there - it's a big generic machine with staff and clients churning in and out. Meanwhile, those of us who left formed a small informal network of small agencies and freelancers, and we still work with each other doing what we used to do, which is possible because we don't have the financial markets breathing down our necks.

                        So from that perspective, what happened at Boeing seems absolutely familiar. What they're going to find out now is how quickly you can wipe out your quality and your reputation, and how hard it is and how long it takes to get them back.

                        Thankfully, the pendulum is beginning to swing back, and shareholder capitalism is starting to give way to an older approach where management balances multiple stakeholders and multiple interests. Poster children like Boeing are helping to push things in a better direction. But there's been a lot of damage done along the way.
                        Alan Ampolsk
                        __________________________________________

                        "Ah, Paula, they are firing at me!" -- Saint-Exupery

                        Comment


                          #18
                          I work for a Fortune 100 company as a engineer and I can tell you our senior management is clueless and incompetent. They are worried about getting rid of senior engineers and replacing them with newbies with no experience. They pay millions on consultants who are recent graduates and then go around asking us how can we improve and then gather the results and spin it to the execs. Their latest focus is how to reduce the cubicle size of each employee. They want to permanent desks only hotel spaces. Well I have 100 reference books on my desk and need them each day. They say too bad. Have them digitized. Clueless. Monkeys
                          Paul Gugliotta
                          United 257 heavy

                          Comment


                          • serge_s
                            serge_s commented
                            Editing a comment
                            We have some of that in our place too Paul. I'm also an engineer working for pharma. We're not in the business of making drugs, we are making paperwork. Drugs are a bi-product. (edit: joking, of course.)

                          #19
                          Originally posted by Swaluver88
                          Boeing is such a big Corp with so many different fields and expansions that it hurts the world economy not just the US
                          Absolutely. There are layoffs at suppliers, airlines are hit hard... it goes on. Which is one major reason why I think big companies need to be under scrutiny, including by good, responsible journalists. The companies have such enormous power over peoples' lives. And left to their own devices, management and investors will just look after their own needs. There needs to be accountability.

                          Paulyg123 - Yep. Sounds depressingly familiar.
                          Alan Ampolsk
                          __________________________________________

                          "Ah, Paula, they are firing at me!" -- Saint-Exupery

                          Comment


                            #20
                            Originally posted by Swaluver88
                            Who cares. The media needs to stop reporting and everyone needs to get along now and get the plane back in there. That's the solution. If the media keeps plucking for stories and bla bla the plane will never get ungrounded or it will take twice aslong. This is problem with society. Everyone would rather pick and find things wrong instead of working on the major problems to get the plane back up in the air. It's annoying this whole thing is annoying now
                            Agree wholeheartedly. Well said Alex.
                            Serge Saakov - KPVD
                            my YouTube page

                            Comment


                              #21
                              Originally posted by Swaluver88
                              Everyone would rather pick and find things wrong instead of working on the major problems to get the plane back up in the air. It's annoying this whole thing is annoying now
                              You've confounded yourself in your own statement. In order to find "major problems", people need to pick and find things wrong. What do you think the test pilots and the FAA are supposed to do when they test/certify a plane?

                              I get that you were probably referring to the media, which can give some pretty excitable aviation reporting at times - but overall it doesn't do a lot of harm and it happens to other industries and people too. I don't think that this sort of reporting is really what's happening with Boeing though. Pretty shocking things are being discovered and reported in a sensible manner, as we should expect them to be.

                              There's a little bit more to this than aviation enthusiasts' love of a certain plane...
                              Rudy Fidao

                              Comment


                                #22
                                Yes this thread is pretty useless
                                Wayne Such

                                Comment


                                  #23
                                  The question of whether you think the New York Times story is important or not - and whether you think this thread is useful or not - depends on what you think the actual problem is.

                                  If you think the problem is some design mistakes that we can fix and get the plane back into the air, then the Times story is "high school drama" and the thread is useless.

                                  But some of us don't think that. Some of us think that the design mistakes aren't the cause - they're a symptom. The real question - the one that, if you answer it correctly, keeps people from being splattered all over the landscape of multiple continents - is, why did those design mistakes get made? Why and how did Boeing - a company that achieved greatness based on one thing, which is great engineering - become a company where the engineers were ignored and shouted down. Because it's Boeing's attitude toward its engineers, its attitude toward safety, and the way it responded to internal complaints and concerns, that brought down those airplanes. Finding out the answer to that - which is what the Times is trying to do - is how you get at root causes.

                                  It's the Challenger analogy again - the proximate cause of the loss of the vehicle was the way the O-rings responded to low temperatures. But the root cause was the complete reversal of NASA's priorities and its culture when the decision was made - gradually, over time - to treat the shuttle as a commercial vehicle that needed to operate on a regular schedule. The most important directive became, not "prove to me it's safe to launch," but rather, "prove to me that it isn't." And that's how you wind up on the night-before-launch conference call with Lawrence Mulloy, the NASA solid rocket booster program manager, saying, "My God, Thiokol, when do you want me to launch, next April? We can't be making up new launch criteria the night before launch." The rest is, as they say, history.

                                  The Times' review of Boeing's internal communications is in the same category, and has the same purpose, as the in-depth examination of that Challenger conference call. They're both about the organization's systems and how they failed. Airplane systems are created by organizational systems. If you just fix the airplane, you haven't fixed the problem.

                                  So maybe better to look at that stuff and get that stuff right before you decide you're done.
                                  Last edited by Alan_A; 15Jan2020, 23:01. Reason: Corrected the name and title of the NASA program manager quoted on the conference call (an earlier edition misidentified him as Stanley Reinartz, a different official at the Marshall Spaceflight Cente
                                  Alan Ampolsk
                                  __________________________________________

                                  "Ah, Paula, they are firing at me!" -- Saint-Exupery

                                  Comment


                                    #24
                                    could not agree more Aaron. The title to this thread applies to many companies out there! "Rise to the point of incompetence.

                                    Well, capitalism is what the country was built on. Focus on what you can change and not what you cant change I feel.
                                    Last edited by oblongmushroom; 15Jan2020, 18:07.
                                    Ro Faulk

                                    Monitor ROG PG27U 4K 144HZ
                                    i9,9900K 5.0GHZ, 64GB RAM, SSD 2TB M.2 OS drive, Dual EVGA 2080Ti NVLinked GPU's, MSI, GODlike Z390 MB.

                                    Comment


                                      #25
                                      Originally posted by oblongmushroom View Post
                                      Well, capitalism is what the country was built on. Focus on what you can change and not what you cant change I feel.
                                      Speaking as someone that's spent 35 of my 45 professional years working with and advocating for businesses, I'm not going to argue with you. I'm not against capitalism - I'm against the particular flavor of it known as shareholder capitalism, that makes investors the only priority. Fortunately, the pendulum is swinging back in a better direction - this statement is a good example. The people who wrote it aren't exactly socialists - but they do realize that there are things than can be changed, and need to be.
                                      WASHINGTON – Business Roundtable today announced the release of a new Statement on the Purpose of a Corporation signed by…
                                      Alan Ampolsk
                                      __________________________________________

                                      "Ah, Paula, they are firing at me!" -- Saint-Exupery

                                      Comment


                                        #26
                                        Originally posted by Alan_A View Post
                                        The question of whether you think the New York Times story is important or not
                                        I'm sorry, did you say the "New York Times?" I thought no one reads that fake rag anymore.

                                        Serge Saakov - KPVD
                                        my YouTube page

                                        Comment


                                          #27
                                          Originally posted by serge_s View Post

                                          I'm sorry, did you say the "New York Times?" I thought no one reads that fake rag anymore.
                                          You might be surprised to find that there’s a diversity of opinion on that among other matters...
                                          Alan Ampolsk
                                          __________________________________________

                                          "Ah, Paula, they are firing at me!" -- Saint-Exupery

                                          Comment


                                            #28
                                            Originally posted by Alan_A View Post

                                            You might be surprised to find that there’s a diversity of opinion on that among other matters...
                                            Well, it is precisely the reason why the New York Times (and other like-minded main stream media outlets) enjoy the well-fitting moniker of "fake news," because they actively suppress the "diversity of opinion" as you call it.

                                            Edit: back to the regular programming of "clowns and monkeys". I like that discussion better.
                                            Last edited by serge_s; 15Jan2020, 18:55.
                                            Serge Saakov - KPVD
                                            my YouTube page

                                            Comment


                                              #29
                                              Originally posted by Alan_A View Post
                                              And that's how you wind up on the night-before-launch conference call with Stanley Reinartz, the NASA program manager, saying, "My God, Thiokol, when do you want me to launch, next April? We can't be making up new launch criteria the night before launch."
                                              Just to be pedantic, that was actually Larry Mulloy's line

                                              Jonathan Bleeker

                                              Comment


                                                #30
                                                Originally posted by JB3DG View Post

                                                Just to be pedantic, that was actually Larry Mulloy's line
                                                Ah, you're right. I read the report too quickly. Mulloy was responsible for the SRB and was the one quoted on the call. Reinartz ran the entire shuttle projects office at Marshall, which was responsible for whole launch propulsion system. I corrected the earlier post - because journalistic integrity, y'know...
                                                Alan Ampolsk
                                                __________________________________________

                                                "Ah, Paula, they are firing at me!" -- Saint-Exupery

                                                Comment

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