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Upcoming EFB

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    Upcoming EFB

    Hello everyone and happy birthday to PMDG!

    Just a general question about the upcoming EFB, is it going to be similar to the Fenix’s i.e. iOS, or Android (please NO), or something different?

    Many thanks,
    Filippos Apostolopoulos

    #2
    Nobody knows yet, we‘ll have to wait and see.
    Ryzen 9 5900X, RX 6900XT, 32GB DDR4 RAM @3600MHz, 4k
    Marc Eland
    GFO Beta

    Comment


      #3
      Is that really "important", if it will "simulate" android or ios? what is the difference?
      Tomas Knaifl

      Comment


      • DrFilippas
        DrFilippas commented
        Editing a comment
        No Tomas, it’s just a personal preference.

      #4
      I'm still puzzled with all this fascination with EFB and how Fenix by some claims is a much superb plane to PMDG because of EFB. I have EFB in zibo in Xplane two of them in fact which blows fenix one out of the water I don't miss it one bit when flying PMDG 737-700 Displaying charts within EFB just kills my eyesight I'd rather have them full screen on a separate window. Options tinkering well I only need to do it once in a blue moon Perf calc. I like short sweet FMS method or external tool like virtual performance one. Now external FMS on ipad that's a big deal huge convenience to tap with a finger vs mouse but we already have that thanks to aviaserver. If PMDG tells me full LNAV2.0 +T7 now, EFB much later I'd take that option in a heartbeat .
      Last edited by matrosov; 12Aug2022, 17:13.
      Aleks Matrosov

      Comment


      • Alec
        Alec commented
        Editing a comment
        DrFilippas it’s interesting that you feel the need to say that. Feels like part of the PMDG member checklist is despising the Fenix and everything about it

      • Swaluver88
        Swaluver88 commented
        Editing a comment
        Alec huh? Enjoy both but you don't gotta find it fascinating.

      • TB500
        TB500 commented
        Editing a comment
        I like that instead of admitting that it is something that everybody wants and that is already a standart (thanks to other developers like Fenix) you just try to talk it down like "Uuuh I dont need it" "I dont like Fenix or their tablet" "The way it is now is much better"

      #5
      I cant wait for an EFB, I hope it comes sooner rather than later. That and having to get out and save a new flightplan is why I dont fly the 737 as much as the a320.
      Phillip Palmer

      Comment


      • Traveling Ray
        Traveling Ray commented
        Editing a comment
        cpalmer41 You are loading your flight plans into the wrong location. There is no need to exit out of the sim load up a new flight plan.

      • cpalmer41
        cpalmer41 commented
        Editing a comment
        Ah ok! Off to youtube i go. Thanks

      • Moach
        Moach commented
        Editing a comment
        You know, you can just use the SimBrief downloader and it'll automatically install your flight plans (and WX data) every time you generate a new flight, right? You don't even need to pause the sim.

      #6
      There was a time when there was no such thing as an EFB and pilots and airlines were just as successful at operating flights.
      Dave Paige
      PPL, ASEL, Instrument

      Comment


      • basa
        basa commented
        Editing a comment
        There was a time when there was no such thing as an airplane either. Time moves on and people like to use new conveniences.

      #7
      Originally posted by matrosov View Post
      I'm still puzzled with all this fascination with EFB and how Fenix by some claims is a much superb plane to PMDG because of EFB. I have EFB in zibo in Xplane two of them in fact which blows fenix one out of the water I don't miss it one bit when flying PMDG 737-700 Displaying charts within EFB just kills my eyesight I'd rather have them full screen on a separate window. Options tinkering well I only need to do it once in a blue moon Perf calc. I like short sweet FMS method or external tool like virtual performance one. Now external FMS on ipad that's a big deal huge convenience to tap with a finger vs mouse but we already have that thanks to aviaserver. If PMDG tells me full LNAV2.0 +T7 now, EFB much later I'd take that option in a heartbeat .
      So, while I agree that generally it's better to have all charts open on a second monitor etc, my fascination with the efb, and why I revere the Fenix a320 & their efb so much, is mainly VR. I really can't stress enough how amazing it is to be able to run an entire flight completely in VR from the flight deck without having to bounce in and out, immersion-wise it's just the complete package.

      For those primarily using a single monitor, I would imagine this achieves much of the same benefits, not having to alt-tab to view charts.

      I personally see the fascination of the efb for certain types of simmers. For me, it's a must. I'm really excited for it to come to the pmdg 737 in msfs.
      Uncle Gogan

      Comment


        #8
        Why does it matter if it's Andriod or IOS?
        Yoshi Elder

        Comment


          #9
          Personally I also hope its not some simulated OS like the Fenix.

          By far the best EFB I've used is the one by FlyByWire: https://flybywiresim.com/notams/flypados3/

          Its minimalistic, intuitive, and very well designed. If the PMDG EFB embodies these three qualities it will be a winner in my books.
          Fahad Al Riyami
          PMDG 737-800 for MSFS, 737NGX, 737NGXu, 747 (+ -8), 777 (+ -300ER). MSFS-exclusive, Honeycomb Alpha & Bravo.

          PC: Ryzen 7700X, RTX 3090 FE, 32GB DDR5-6000,

          Comment


          • DrFilippas
            DrFilippas commented
            Editing a comment
            Definitely agree with you here Fahad, I just wanted to know what PMDG have in their minds in terms of this.

          #10
          In terms of UI the FBW EFB is the best. It’s brilliant! UI has never been PMDG:s strong suit so I hope they have someone on their team now that can get all the EFB elements together well enough.
          - John Svensson

          Comment


            #11
            Originally posted by dave_paige View Post
            There was a time when there was no such thing as an EFB and pilots and airlines were just as successful at operating flights.
            There also was a time when people took the train, no running water or the 'wheel'. So, what now?
            [email protected] Pletsch

            Postnigs with typnig errors since 1984

            Comment


              #12
              Originally posted by Mad_X View Post

              There also was a time when people took the train, no running water or the 'wheel'. So, what now?
              I can very well remember the time we had to unfold and manage the huge ICAO charts in the tiny C172 cockpit and find airspaces and nav stations Then pin the airport AIPs to the kneeboard on the leg.. We had sooo much paper on board when we flew from Southern Germany to Hammerfest in Norway ^^ An EFB/tablet with all that saved is so much simpler to use
              Ryzen 9 5900X, RX 6900XT, 32GB DDR4 RAM @3600MHz, 4k
              Marc Eland
              GFO Beta

              Comment


                #13
                The thing is... there's no type of charts display simmers use that ISNT an EFB. I think very few people are sitting at their desktop computer with paper charts and Jepp binders. Whether you use Navigraph popped up in an in-sim window, or in its standalone app, or on a physical tablet; or you're using Foreflight or a company Jepp app on a tablet etc... it's ALL electronic.

                There's not much difference between an in-sim window and an EFB hanging on the side window with a view mapped to it. It's all an electronic display, so it's kind of hard for me to understand the difference. I know people want it and so I hope it happens... but I have trouble understanding what functionality it will bring (I guess a perf calculator would be nice, but it's not hard to figure out what will get a -700 off the ground.)

                I'm much more excited for full ARINC 424 capability!
                Andrew Crowley

                Comment


                  #14
                  Originally posted by Stearmandriver View Post
                  The thing is... there's no type of charts display simmers use that ISNT an EFB. I think very few people are sitting at their desktop computer with paper charts and Jepp binders. Whether you use Navigraph popped up in an in-sim window, or in its standalone app, or on a physical tablet; or you're using Foreflight or a company Jepp app on a tablet etc... it's ALL electronic.

                  There's not much difference between an in-sim window and an EFB hanging on the side window with a view mapped to it. It's all an electronic display, so it's kind of hard for me to understand the difference. I know people want it and so I hope it happens... but I have trouble understanding what functionality it will bring (I guess a perf calculator would be nice, but it's not hard to figure out what will get a -700 off the ground.)
                  Yes, this.

                  But with regard to the parts I've bolded, the one thing I am personally looking forward to is a more centralized, cohesive user experience ("UX" in the parlance of the times) concerning ground services, payload management, systems maintenance and servicing, aircraft equipment and display options, etc. Right now, all of that is managed (clunkily) through the FMC. It would be substantially easier and definitely feel more modern to do it through an EFB.

                  Having said that, if the plane never gets an EFB, I'm fine with it. I want some semblance of a weather radar as soon as PMDG have figured out what the SU10 SDK will and won't allow, and how best to implement it.
                  Herb Schaltegger - Father, husband, lawyer, engineer & getting too old for this $#!t. Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball!TM.

                  Comment


                    #15
                    Yes, weather radar will be nice too!
                    Andrew Crowley

                    Comment


                    • Stearmandriver
                      Stearmandriver commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Crabby well, partially. But it's not as if we'll have weather radar the instant SU10 drops. That update makes it possible, but then devs still have to actually build it into their products.

                    • Crabby
                      Crabby commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Nothing partial about it. Asobo still has issues with performance on 3rd party planes. There is a ton of info about this. No one is going to integrate a performance killer.

                    • Stearmandriver
                      Stearmandriver commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Yes but whenever it is ready, unless Asobo hands devs a prebuilt wx radar picture (which is unlikely and not desirable anyway since then every aircraft would unrealistically have the exact same weather picture regardless of radar installed) devs still have to build it into a picture and integrate it into a working radar unit.

                      So, very much "partially." PMDG will have work to do as well, before you can turn on the radar in the 737.

                    #16
                    Tbh, I just want an EFB for proper perf calcs,
                    Joe Colehouse

                    Comment


                      #17
                      Hello,

                      as earlier mentioned in this thread, the EFB adds a lot of immersion for VR users.
                      My second point is, that it would be great to take over the data from the SimBrief OFP, including not only the weather and the flightplan, but also the PAX number and cargo. So you can choose to board the plane automatically and to fully concentrate for the pre flight preparation.

                      Best regards.
                      Sebastian Bumel

                      Comment


                        #18
                        Hey Everybody-

                        I think we will begin showing you our universal flight tablet about mid-september-ish. It will have many of the features we use in real life, adapted, of course, to simming in the forum of SimBrief and Navigraph. We are in the process of working through the Operational Performance Tool, being very careful to avoid infringing on the intellectual property of the many real-world vendors providing such capabilities- as this would be easy to do given our familiarity with them from actual operations.

                        None of what will be provided is "new" to PMDG products per-se, as our P3D product line has implementations of the Class I and Clas III EFBs provided in the 737, 747 and 777 aircraft- so to those who might be thinking "oh this is new territory for PMDG" it really isn't. We have simply decided to move a bunch of our Options and Setup capabilities from the FMS menus to the tablet, and this meant departing from the classic (and very tired) Boeing EFB design that was originally included.

                        I am just guessing at this point, but I think the tablet will be made operational for you in October or so... Possibly sooner, possibly later... It just depends upon how long it takes to amalgamate all of the performance data once we have the operational flight planning tool implemented in this new format.

                        Robert S. Randazzo
                        PMDG Simulations
                        http://www.pmdg.com


                        Comment


                        • DrFilippas
                          DrFilippas commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Great stuff Robert!
                          Thanks a lot for the information.

                        #19
                        Hello Robert,

                        thank you for the update. Albeit EFB is a handy tool, it is not required to enjoy flying PMDG (or any other products).

                        However, I have two questions. Would PMDG consider to allow tablet interaction? IMHO, allowing to have a data on a tablet next to me provides for easier / better flight experience / overall flight management.

                        My second question is if the PMDG team would consider linking PFPX features (such as uploading the flight plan, copying data to the FMC, etc.) for the upcoming EFB?

                        Thank you.
                        Andrej Lippay

                        Comment


                          #20
                          Originally posted by fatman744 View Post

                          My second question is if the PMDG team would consider linking PFPX features (such as uploading the flight plan, copying data to the FMC, etc.) for the upcoming EFB?

                          Thank you.
                          I can't speak for PMDG or any of their future plans but uploading OFPs from Simbrief and PFPX is actually part of GFO which is another product in development. Using Datalink these OFP's load directly into the aircraft's FMS and - to my knowledge - have nothing to do with the EFB. I see the benefit of it and know how other devs have done that. From PMDG's earlier EFB I would assume that you can simply download a pdf with the Simbrief downloader (or via PFPX for that matter) into the EFB folder and display it in the universal flight tablet. Any further direct interaction with Simbrief and other suppliers with a login etc would be nice but I don't expect it in the initial release. PMDG has always been quite reluctant with direct interaction with third party developers. The most we have seen so far was the Navigraph login screen.
                          Ryzen 9 5900X, RX 6900XT, 32GB DDR4 RAM @3600MHz, 4k
                          Marc Eland
                          GFO Beta

                          Comment


                            #21
                            I personally find it strange how there seems to always be some sort of movement against EFBs whenever people post about it. Obviously, it's not the most important area of focus for an airplane addon and you perfectly get the aircraft flying without one. It's fine if one doesn't need it, but there's not a single argument against it since it either doesn't change your way of simming or it changes it a lot and I would bet it changes for the better for most people. Bit strange to always read arguments like some airlines don't have EFBs, airplanes can fly without it/there were days when everything was paper, I print 30 pages of OFP and charts before every sim flight so EFBs are superfluous, you don't appreciate the system depth of PMDG addons because you'd like an EFB, etc.

                            I personally don't want to use an external app making me have to switch out of the sim or even out of VR just to get a quick glimpse at an approach plate. I also don't want to have to guesstimate the assumed temp appropriate for takeoff but run an accurate calculation like IRL and I don't want to pay for another third-party app to do that for me or use an app that's outdated or doesn't even have data for the specific variant I'm flying so I have to resort to using an 800 calculation for flying the 700. I'd also like to see my OFP in the sim without having to tab out of MSFS every time just to look up one data point. I remember filling in the FMC with OFP values in times before EFBs were a thing and it was outright annoying to constantly switch back and forth between the sim and the PDF program. It also made me look at the charts only when I really needed to look up data, whereas with an EFB displaying charts in the sim I can conveniently crosscheck every restriction on a SID as I approach it.

                            I fly in VR and you can display charts and your OFP via addons in VR but it's still clunky at best. Doing the same through the EFB in the NGXu in P3D or in the Fenix A320 in MSFS was/is a lot easier and faster, both in VR and in pancake mode.

                            Rant over.
                            MSFS | 737-700 | i9 9900K 5 GHz | Corsair 32 GB | RTX 3090 24 GB | W10 | HP Reverb G2

                            Comment


                              #22
                              Originally posted by threegreen View Post
                              I personally find it strange how there seems to always be some sort of movement against EFBs whenever people post about it. Obviously, it's not the most important area of focus for an airplane addon and you perfectly get the aircraft flying without one. It's fine if one doesn't need it, but there's not a single argument against it since it either doesn't change your way of simming or it changes it a lot and I would bet it changes for the better for most people. Bit strange to always read arguments like some airlines don't have EFBs, airplanes can fly without it/there were days when everything was paper, I print 30 pages of OFP and charts before every sim flight so EFBs are superfluous, you don't appreciate the system depth of PMDG addons because you'd like an EFB, etc.

                              I personally don't want to use an external app making me have to switch out of the sim or even out of VR just to get a quick glimpse at an approach plate. I also don't want to have to guesstimate the assumed temp appropriate for takeoff but run an accurate calculation like IRL and I don't want to pay for another third-party app to do that for me or use an app that's outdated or doesn't even have data for the specific variant I'm flying so I have to resort to using an 800 calculation for flying the 700. I'd also like to see my OFP in the sim without having to tab out of MSFS every time just to look up one data point. I remember filling in the FMC with OFP values in times before EFBs were a thing and it was outright annoying to constantly switch back and forth between the sim and the PDF program. It also made me look at the charts only when I really needed to look up data, whereas with an EFB displaying charts in the sim I can conveniently crosscheck every restriction on a SID as I approach it.

                              I fly in VR and you can display charts and your OFP via addons in VR but it's still clunky at best. Doing the same through the EFB in the NGXu in P3D or in the Fenix A320 in MSFS was/is a lot easier and faster, both in VR and in pancake mode.

                              Rant over.
                              Sim flyers rely on EFB however PWB is used 90% of the time in the real airliners. PWB would be something to adventure in than just an EFB as well. Get the full immersion
                              Alex Kulak
                              PMDG Studier and flyer

                              Comment


                                #23
                                Originally posted by Swaluver88 View Post

                                Sim flyers rely on EFB however PWB is used 90% of the time in the real airliners. PWB would be something to adventure in than just an EFB as well. Get the full immersion
                                What's PWB? If you mean uplinking to the FMC, sure that's what many operators use, but you'd typically still have an EFB with your charts, OFP, weather, documents like FCOMS and FOMs, etc. (no, not every airline has EFBs or even ACARS running calculations with uplinks ).

                                As a side note, I actually got to check out a rare visitor the other day, a 737-400 freighter whose operator apparently does not offer EFBs. That flight deck was full of paper vs. all the other airlines I get to see at work that have an EFB with almost no printed documents.
                                Last edited by threegreen; 14Aug2022, 12:49.
                                MSFS | 737-700 | i9 9900K 5 GHz | Corsair 32 GB | RTX 3090 24 GB | W10 | HP Reverb G2

                                Comment


                                  #24
                                  Originally posted by threegreen View Post

                                  What's PWB? If you mean uplinking to the FMC, sure that's what many operators use, but you'd typically still have an EFB with your charts, OFP, weather, documents like FCOMS and FOMs, etc. (no, not every airline has EFBs or even ACARS running calculations with uplinks ).

                                  As a side note, I actually got to check out a rare visitor the other day, a 737-400 freighter whose operator apparently does not offer EFBs. That flight deck was full of paper vs. all the other airlines I get to see at work that have an EFB with almost no printed documents.
                                  PWB is the FMC calculator pretty much. It takes all the weight calculates everything, finds out what decel rate and what flap settings to takeoff with within optimal range and then you can load it all into the init ref. And takeoff and N1 pages without entering anything and go
                                  Alex Kulak
                                  PMDG Studier and flyer

                                  Comment


                                    #25
                                    Originally posted by Ephedrin View Post

                                    I can't speak for PMDG or any of their future plans but uploading OFPs from Simbrief and PFPX is actually part of GFO which is another product in development. Using Datalink these OFP's load directly into the aircraft's FMS and - to my knowledge - have nothing to do with the EFB. I see the benefit of it and know how other devs have done that. From PMDG's earlier EFB I would assume that you can simply download a pdf with the Simbrief downloader (or via PFPX for that matter) into the EFB folder and display it in the universal flight tablet. Any further direct interaction with Simbrief and other suppliers with a login etc would be nice but I don't expect it in the initial release. PMDG has always been quite reluctant with direct interaction with third party developers. The most we have seen so far was the Navigraph login screen.
                                    I don‘t hope this will be the way. I hope for a full integration of Simbrief and Navigraph including the linking of the personal accounts for native integration. Not uploading an PDF to display it in the EFB.
                                    In addition I hope I don‘t have to buy another addon (GFO) to get the level of integration like I get from the competitors.
                                    I‘m really looking forward what they will offer to us. One thing is for sure, it will be at the top level in the market.

                                    Cheers
                                    Sebastian Bumel

                                    Comment


                                    • EasternT3
                                      EasternT3 commented
                                      Editing a comment
                                      RSR has already said the EFB will have simbrief and Navigraph integration....

                                    #26
                                    Originally posted by Swaluver88 View Post

                                    PWB is the FMC calculator pretty much. It takes all the weight calculates everything, finds out what decel rate and what flap settings to takeoff with within optimal range and then you can load it all into the init ref. And takeoff and N1 pages without entering anything and go
                                    I assume you mean ACARS performance requests generated by a remote server and uplinked to the FMC. The FMC calculation doesn't tell you what derate to use or what flap setting is best, etc. Some airlines do this via ACARS and some via EFB apps. It's essentially the same just a different platform. Since PMDG aircraft don't have ACARS, the EFB is the obvious choice.

                                    MSFS | 737-700 | i9 9900K 5 GHz | Corsair 32 GB | RTX 3090 24 GB | W10 | HP Reverb G2

                                    Comment


                                      #27
                                      Hello Robert

                                      Thank you for sharing an update on how the 800 and EFB is coming along. I can't wait to have it in my very own simulator. Keep up the good work

                                      Best regards
                                      Birk737
                                      Birk
                                      Competitive flight simmer.

                                      Comment


                                        #28
                                        Originally posted by rsrandazzo View Post
                                        We have simply decided to move a bunch of our Options and Setup capabilities from the FMS menus to the tablet, and this meant departing from the classic (and very tired) Boeing EFB design that was originally included.
                                        Here's a question for you. In the NGXu, the EFB was optional. If the options are being moved from the FMC to the tablet, does this mean that the tablet is always there. Not that it makes a difference to me since I'd be using it anyway, but it was just a thought that crossed my mind.
                                        Captain Kevin

                                        Kevin Yang

                                        Comment


                                          #29
                                          Originally posted by Captain Kevin View Post
                                          Here's a question for you. In the NGXu, the EFB was optional. If the options are being moved from the FMC to the tablet, does this mean that the tablet is always there. Not that it makes a difference to me since I'd be using it anyway, but it was just a thought that crossed my mind.
                                          They could do it like the Leonardo Maddog where there is a click spot to hide the EFB. Of course I don’t know if they plan this feature but it could always be suggested.
                                          Tom Landry

                                          Comment


                                            #30
                                            Originally posted by threegreen View Post
                                            I personally find it strange how there seems to always be some sort of movement against EFBs whenever people post about it. Obviously, it's not the most important area of focus for an airplane addon and you perfectly get the aircraft flying without one. It's fine if one doesn't need it, but there's not a single argument against it since it either doesn't change your way of simming or it changes it a lot and I would bet it changes for the better for most people.
                                            A fair point. I think a lot of it is just the lack of nuance inherent in forum comms; discussions tend to develop along black-or-white, this-or-that lines.

                                            For those of us suggesting that the EFB isn't that important, I think the real point is that we question its prioritization at this stage of development. There seems to be an attitude on the forum that an EFB is a basic bit of functionality that simply must be present in a modern airliner.

                                            It isn't. But there ARE other basic functionalities that ARE required in order to have a realistic simulation of a 737NG, that are still missing here. Some examples:

                                            - the aircraft still can't use ARINC 424 data / can't fly RF legs. The LNAV 2.0 is an improvement to the pseudo-waypoint approach, but not correct. The aircraft still deviates from its computed lateral track, re-calculations still occur at each pseudo-waypoint, and the roll mode flight guidance bangs from side to side.
                                            - VNAV is similarly sloppy. It routinely overspeeds a climb speed in VNAV SPD, and it routinely blows a level-off by several hundred feet.
                                            - selected lateral mode routinely drops and must be re-selected during a missed approach.
                                            Etc. Then there are optional features that aren't exactly required for a 73, but if present should work - like the HUD AIII mode for instance.

                                            And then, below all of that stuff that actually pertains to the basic operation of the aircraft being simulated, is where I would personally place items that don't actually relate to a simulation of the aircraft itself but rather to a simulation of user experience while operating the aircraft. I'm not saying that user experience isn't important, but the aircraft itself has to function correctly first, right? Otherwise what are you simulating?

                                            The EFB doesn't actually add any functionality that can't already be accomplished (well, maybe a perf calculator but let's face it, that'll only ever be an approximation anyway).. but something like proper RF legs and smooth flight guidance that can actually be used to handfly... now THAT does.

                                            The standard line we hear from devs is that dedicating resources to A doesn't necessarily mean they're being taken away from B... but let's face it, in a small development house (pretty much the entirely of the flight sim world), it kind of does. If the EFB were done tomorrow, it isn't as if the folks working on it would just disappear; they'd go on to work on something else, right?

                                            I'm all for including options. And I do understand PMDG's decision to prioritize the EFB, as the community is kind of demanding it and it's good business to give your customers what they want.

                                            I guess I'm mostly expressing surprise at the community position itself, that seems to regard something like an EFB as important while there are still some basics of the simulation to nail down.



                                            Andrew Crowley

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                                            • Furioken
                                              Furioken commented
                                              Editing a comment
                                              But exactly there is the difference between the customers of Flight Sim Products. You prefer, like myself, a perfect reconstruction of the real Aircraft in the sim. But there are many many people who couldn't care less about something like a bit of overspeed. All they want to do is recreate some irl flights with all the planning and the other fuzz. I really dont think most pmdg customers really use the failures or understand how the systems really work. Its just not important to know if you only want to get from A to B. The EFB, as seen in the Fenix A320, makes this kind of Simming really easy and enjoyable for those who like it. I can totally understand the high demand the EFB is getting and even though i'd like to see fixes to the things you mentioned, i also really want the EFB .
                                              Also speaking of the perf calculator, thats an integral part of departure planning and i personally dont want to pay for an extra tool, like many others.
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