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PMDG - possible illegal use of your Logo/name?

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    PMDG - possible illegal use of your Logo/name?

    What you do about this is up to you but I thought you should be aware of it...
    https://flightsim.to/file/31462/flyb...ith-mask-in-8k

    #2
    They've even butchered that paintjob, apparently that's 8K!
    Attached Files
    Tom Berry

    Comment


      #3
      It does look good though. Hope to see it for real at some point in the far future!

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Emi View Post
        It does look good though. Hope to see it for real at some point in the far future!
        Hehe....a PMDG Airbus? I think that is coming right after the PMDG MD-11 😁

        Yeah not sure if this paint is kosher....especially since he makes this statement "However, I ask you to show your appreciation in the form of a coffee or a small donation. "
        Clear violation of any PMDG "branded" product and I think at least the PMDG logos need to go, the livery itself I don't believe is exclusively copyrighted, but I may be wrong.

        Just a poor execution of a bad idea IMO....he should stick to actual A320 Neo liveries as he's actually a pretty good painter. Although the whole 8k texture thing is hilarious if you really know anything about painting. Talk about hype...unless the painter re-paints every pixel of the 8192x8192 maps to ultra detail, its only making you download files that are 16x bigger than 4k maps.
        You scale a raster image up, you lose detail...fact of computer graphics. Nobody is completely repainting an 8k map. Better to delve into decals for details if you can.
        Regards, Steve Dra
        Click here to download my P3D, FSX, 2004 paints at Avsim
        Get my paints for MSFS planes at flightsim.to here

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Steve Dra View Post

          Hehe....a PMDG Airbus? I think that is coming right after the PMDG MD-11 😁

          Yeah not sure if this paint is kosher....especially since he makes this statement "However, I ask you to show your appreciation in the form of a coffee or a small donation. "
          Clear violation of any PMDG "branded" product and I think at least the PMDG logos need to go, the livery itself I don't believe is exclusively copyrighted, but I may be wrong.

          Just a poor execution of a bad idea IMO....he should stick to actual A320 Neo liveries as he's actually a pretty good painter. Although the whole 8k texture thing is hilarious if you really know anything about painting. Talk about hype...unless the painter re-paints every pixel of the 8192x8192 maps to ultra detail, its only making you download files that are 16x bigger than 4k maps.
          You scale a raster image up, you lose detail...fact of computer graphics. Nobody is completely repainting an 8k map. Better to delve into decals for details if you can.
          Your just trying to TAKE OUT the competition!!! BIRDFARMER….. JK ….. you actually have none…. From where I’m looking!!!!! Your work is amazing!!!!
          EMCS sw ret……..
          Harry Blaine GouldAcer Predator Helios 300 Gaming Laptop PC, 15.6" Full HD 144Hz 3ms IPS Display, Intel i7-9750H, GeForce GTX 1660 Ti 6GB, 32GB DDR4, 1 TB NVMe SSD

          Comment


            #6
            There's already too many airbuses being made for msfs from highly rated devs. So PMDG has the whole boeing line to themselves it looks like
            Alex Kulak
            PMDG Studier and flyer

            Comment


              #7
              Hell... free advertising. PMDG should be buying the guy a beer haha.
              Andrew Crowley

              Comment


                #8
                Imagine having to send an email with asking permission to every company or airline asking there permission. No this isn't illegal,
                Last edited by QantasCaptain; 25Apr2022, 17:43.

                Comment


                • fahdriyami
                  fahdriyami commented
                  Editing a comment
                  That's exactly what Asobo/MS is doing to get real life airline liveries in MSFS. So far they only succeeded with KLM.

                #9
                Don't see how this is any different to making an American Airlines or Southwest livery, and no one ever emails them for permission to use their logos.
                Tim Rosander

                Comment


                  #10
                  It's different, if there's monetization involved. If I make a repaint of American Airlines, and charge people $10 to download it, then I suppose, that I'd most likely be in trouble. Just guessing, though? I would suspect, that I would be in the wrong, if I made money of someone's work, design, livery, logo... etc. I don't know the legal ramafications (if any) if it's freeware. He does ask/encourage donations; which could be construded as monetization? I don't know. I'm most likely off and speculation here.
                  Best regards,
                  --Anders Bermann--
                  ____________________
                  Scandinavian VA
                  Pilot-ID: SAS2471

                  Comment


                  • fahdriyami
                    fahdriyami commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Companies usually just have design relate guidelines for the use of their logos. Like if a news channel wanted to use a company logo in their report. i.e. don't change the colors, don't squish it etc.

                    They don't usually go after others for making money from their logos. Like a company that makes stickers of their logos. They just think of it as free advertising. Not always the case though.

                  • Anders Bermann
                    Anders Bermann commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I'm not really sure what you mean. But I'm fairly certain, as have already been ascertained in this thread, that (certain) companies, really guard their creative property and are making actively sure, that other people don't infringe and use their designs for themselves. You could, of course is it as 'free advertisement', but in the far amount of cases, illegal or wrongful usage (which infringes on copyrights) of designs and logos are usually being stopped through legal action! And I can understand why. These companies have most likely invested a lot of money in design and also only want their logos etc with certain situations or things. Just think of the musicians, who have sued for using their music, without being asked, in public rallies etc...
                    Regarding your 'sticker' example, I'm fairly certain, that if you launch a company, which makes stickers of other company logos, and are planning to sell them, then you would most likely need an agreement with whoever own the logo, you're planning to put on the sticker.

                  #11
                  Gents,

                  We are flattered. We well could make the case that it should be taken down because it causes brand confusion, or dillutes the recognition of our brand.

                  I think at this point in the history of simming, simply being flattered is sufficient.

                  Robert S. Randazzo
                  PMDG Simulations
                  http://www.pmdg.com


                  Comment


                  • Hydbyr
                    Hydbyr commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Brilliant response!!!

                  • robroberson
                    robroberson commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Or, it's a clever leak showing a surprise next project. (just kidding)

                  • cirurginn
                    cirurginn commented
                    Editing a comment
                    So that is the famous 737-Neo ?

                  #12
                  Originally posted by Anders Bermann View Post
                  It's different, if there's monetization involved. If I make a repaint of American Airlines, and charge people $10 to download it, then I suppose, that I'd most likely be in trouble. Just guessing, though? I would suspect, that I would be in the wrong, if I made money of someone's work, design, livery, logo... etc. I don't know the legal ramafications (if any) if it's freeware. He does ask/encourage donations; which could be construded as monetization? I don't know. I'm most likely off and speculation here.
                  You're right.
                  Basically, most airlines look the other way when us lowly flightsim painters use their logos...as long as we don't charge for our work (or ask for donations or otherwise profit off it)
                  Its free advertising for them, and not worth the effort of even sending us a cease and desist order.

                  Anyone who's been around long enough to remember when Peter Tirisma tried to corner the American Airlines® brand and logo in flightsim can appreciate what happens when a payware company tries to capitalize on another company's registered trademarks.

                  Disney on the other hand.....try asking permission to paint a logo jet with their characters on it. I did once...and now that I've been officially notified by them that I can't use their characters or any likeness of them in any of my work, I could be sued by them if I do. So its like....you ask...they say no...you're stuck. You don't ask, you don't make money off it...you should be fine.

                  You guys would be flying around Microsoft's fake airline liveries on all you planes if painters had to get permission to use every little logo (not just the airline logos, but let's say a livery with Hertz, Visa, a sports team, etc).

                  This issue is different because the PMDG logo is associated with flight simulation, and it is being mis-represented and the person is asking for monetary compensation....Hehe and if Rob and I post at the same time and he says its ok, then that's all there is to say. Technically though he has every right to ask for it to be taken down.
                  Last edited by Steve Dra; 25Apr2022, 18:22.
                  Regards, Steve Dra
                  Click here to download my P3D, FSX, 2004 paints at Avsim
                  Get my paints for MSFS planes at flightsim.to here

                  Comment


                    #13
                    Originally posted by kweyzar View Post
                    Your just trying to TAKE OUT the competition!!! BIRDFARMER….. JK ….. you actually have none…. From where I’m looking!!!!! Your work is amazing!!!!
                    EMCS sw ret……..
                    Dang blackshoes....usually when they talk nothing useful ever comes out of their mouths...JK. Thanks Shipmate! Painters shouldn't be competing...we just paint the best we can and hope the community enjoys our work.
                    Regards, Steve Dra
                    Click here to download my P3D, FSX, 2004 paints at Avsim
                    Get my paints for MSFS planes at flightsim.to here

                    Comment


                      #14
                      Originally posted by Steve Dra View Post
                      Hehe....a PMDG Airbus? I think that is coming right after the PMDG MD-11 😁
                      The FSL A320 is essentially what was once announced as the PMDG A320.

                      Comment


                        #15
                        now thats just funny
                        Michael Backes
                        ---------------------
                        Windows 10 x64 on a 4TB SSD | AMD Ryzen Threadripper 3960X | TRX40 AORUS Master | 128GB DDR4 3600MHz | 1250W PSU | 2x EVGA RTX 3090 | P3D v5 and MSFS2020 on a 4TB SSD | Custom Corsair Hydro Cooling

                        Comment


                          #16
                          Flattered but don’t do it again.
                          Danny Z.Cebis

                          Comment


                            #17
                            Originally posted by rsrandazzo View Post
                            We are flattered. We well could make the case that it should be taken down because it causes brand confusion, or dillutes the recognition of our brand.

                            I think at this point in the history of simming, simply being flattered is sufficient.
                            I suppose that's better than being flattened.
                            Captain Kevin

                            Kevin Yang

                            Comment


                              #18
                              I found another illegal use of the PMDG logo: The Carolina Hurricanes!! They use a red branding instead of blue thinking nobody will notice!! They should change their name for The PMDG hockey club. 🤔

                              240733ED-D93C-4FF4-9E35-1FA0FE236A2A.jpg

                              ​​​​​​​
                              Sylvenzo Guenette

                              Comment


                                #19
                                Originally posted by Steve Dra View Post

                                You're right.
                                Basically, most airlines look the other way when us lowly flightsim painters use their logos...as long as we don't charge for our work (or ask for donations or otherwise profit off it)
                                Its free advertising for them, and not worth the effort of even sending us a cease and desist order.

                                Anyone who's been around long enough to remember when Peter Tirisma tried to corner the American Airlines® brand and logo in flightsim can appreciate what happens when a payware company tries to capitalize on another company's registered trademarks.

                                Disney on the other hand.....try asking permission to paint a logo jet with their characters on it. I did once...and now that I've been officially notified by them that I can't use their characters or any likeness of them in any of my work, I could be sued by them if I do. So its like....you ask...they say no...you're stuck. You don't ask, you don't make money off it...you should be fine.

                                You guys would be flying around Microsoft's fake airline liveries on all you planes if painters had to get permission to use every little logo (not just the airline logos, but let's say a livery with Hertz, Visa, a sports team, etc).

                                This issue is different because the PMDG logo is associated with flight simulation, and it is being mis-represented and the person is asking for monetary compensation....Hehe and if Rob and I post at the same time and he says its ok, then that's all there is to say. Technically though he has every right to ask for it to be taken down.



                                Forgot to ask!!!

                                Disney.jpg
                                Norman W. Henderson

                                Comment


                                  #20
                                  Originally posted by 09tir98 View Post
                                  Don't see how this is any different to making an American Airlines or Southwest livery, and no one ever emails them for permission to use their logos.
                                  Steve has been around pretty much as long as I have, so I hate to disagree with him, but I think my disagreement is more semantics than true factual disagreement. It's not that the airlines "ignore" flightsimmers. There is *actual case law* that makes digital recreation of airline liveries in Flight Simulation (or other formats) for free not copyright infringement, so the airlines are forced to ignore us.

                                  I'll just say these two words - Papa Tango. Search those words with "flightsim" and you'll find the history. Robert remembers it very well I'm sure, as I'm sure most of the PMDG team does. I thankfully never got a Cease & Desist since I had always either done VA or military repaints up to that point (military schemes have generally been "public domain" even in the real world, so never an issue).
                                  Chris Trott

                                  Comment


                                  • rsrandazzo
                                    rsrandazzo commented
                                    Editing a comment
                                    Chris- I have an unfortunate amount of experience in this arena and you are close, but not entirely correct. The issue isn't that they are "forced to." The issue is that there is significant cost to litigating the issue, and so long as it isn't doing their brand harm, they can derive more positive value than negative. This is one of the reasons we restrict people from creating flaming/charred/damaged wreckage versions of our products. If there is a strong negative influence then the airline will decide the litigation costs are worth the effort, and the world for simmers will change. There is quite a bit more to artistic interpretation than the simming community has dealt with yet. I hope it won't happen at any point in the future. - RSR

                                  • CAPFlyer
                                    CAPFlyer commented
                                    Editing a comment
                                    The PT ruling established that the airlines could not claim copyright or trademark infringement for freeware repaints (as it determined such repaints fall under the Fair Use concept for copyright and a similar principle for trademark). They could require you sign up for a "license" (which I think only American ever did, and only for a short time before dropping it), but they couldn't require you to pay them anything unless it was a commercial product. Because of that, there was no real cause for suit available to the airlines anymore. As you pointed out, something burned or harmful to the brand, falls under a different issue (defamation among others) but without a valid cause for action (i.e. copyright or trademark infringement), there's no grounds for lawsuit.

                                  #21
                                  Originally posted by CAPFlyer View Post

                                  Steve has been around pretty much as long as I have, so I hate to disagree with him, but I think my disagreement is more semantics than true factual disagreement. It's not that the airlines "ignore" flightsimmers. There is *actual case law* that makes digital recreation of airline liveries in Flight Simulation (or other formats) for free not copyright infringement, so the airlines are forced to ignore us.

                                  I'll just say these two words - Papa Tango. Search those words with "flightsim" and you'll find the history. Robert remembers it very well I'm sure, as I'm sure most of the PMDG team does. I thankfully never got a Cease & Desist since I had always either done VA or military repaints up to that point (military schemes have generally been "public domain" even in the real world, so never an issue).
                                  Hey Chris....did we work together decades ago with Eric, Mike and a few others in SGA? (or FFG or something?) If so....its remarkable that I can even remember that long back, LOL.
                                  Anyway. Had no clue there was case law on the subject....and PT almost ruined it for all of us.
                                  Regards, Steve Dra
                                  Click here to download my P3D, FSX, 2004 paints at Avsim
                                  Get my paints for MSFS planes at flightsim.to here

                                  Comment


                                    #22
                                    Originally posted by ctstech25 View Post




                                    Forgot to ask!!!
                                    Hehe....yeah...don't ask....trust me.
                                    Regards, Steve Dra
                                    Click here to download my P3D, FSX, 2004 paints at Avsim
                                    Get my paints for MSFS planes at flightsim.to here

                                    Comment


                                      #23
                                      Originally posted by Steve Dra View Post

                                      Hey Chris....did we work together decades ago with Eric, Mike and a few others in SGA? (or FFG or something?) If so....its remarkable that I can even remember that long back, LOL.
                                      Anyway. Had no clue there was case law on the subject....and PT almost ruined it for all of us.
                                      Yep. Same dumb fueler that got all those pics for Eric for the DC-10, 727, and A300 (among others). Was there for all 3 iterations of the group. Fun times. First "paid" gig in flightsimming for me actually with the "FlyTo" product after helping on a bunch of smaller projects for other groups over the years.
                                      Chris Trott

                                      Comment


                                      • Steve Dra
                                        Steve Dra commented
                                        Editing a comment
                                        Yep...my 1st paid gig too...Fly to Cancun it was, and I actually painted the Aero Cancun DC-10 on the cover (and the Iberia too if I recall.)....and its still available at amazon.com! For $34.95 LOL

                                      #24
                                      Can someone do this in the B767? Please, I know that it doesn't exist and maybe a PMDG B767 will never exist, but it would be some images that I would print and put on the headboard of my bed to at least dream about it.
                                      Last edited by Steven Silva; 27Apr2022, 00:59.
                                      Steven Silva

                                      PMDG 767 for P3D/MSFS

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