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Abandoned passengers

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    Abandoned passengers

    The BBC today ran an investigation into claims by some disabled passengers that they had been left on an otherwise empty aircraft after being promised by the cabin crew that someone would come to help them disembark.
    At what points do the cabin and cockpit crew gain/relinquish responsibility for passengers before/after each flight?
    Cheers, Richard

    #2
    Originally posted by RichardMcDonaldWoods View Post
    The BBC today ran an investigation into claims by some disabled passengers that they had been left on an otherwise empty aircraft after being promised by the cabin crew that someone would come to help them disembark.
    At what points do the cabin and cockpit crew gain/relinquish responsibility for passengers before/after each flight?
    So I know for a fact if they need a wheel chair (atleast here for american and southwest) they use ABM and Prospect that will provide and push them.from.door of the aircraft door to coursel and parking curb
    Alex Kulak
    PMDG Studier and flyer
    Ramp Agent @PHX

    Comment


      #3
      Alex, thanks for your off-topic reply.
      Cheers, Richard

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by RichardMcDonaldWoods View Post
        Alex, thanks for your off-topic reply.
        Wasnt really off topic at all.. flight crew is responsible for all pax but also not getting them off if there is a 3rd part contractor to help disabled people from aircraft door onward. That would fall on the gate agent , but all airlines are different, I'm looking from a US viewpoint
        Alex Kulak
        PMDG Studier and flyer
        Ramp Agent @PHX

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by RichardMcDonaldWoods View Post
          Alex, thanks for your off-topic reply.
          Would you be able to explain how the response was off-topic? Seemed be actually pretty accurately answer the question.

          All the same, I'll add some detail:
          I don't believe that there is any specific timeline in a global sense. It's likely down to the language in the contract of carriage, which is between the passenger and the operator. It's the agreement that you enter into upon purchasing the ticket, though there are some variations, similar to those EU requirements that require compensation in delays/cancellations, etc.

          The crew itself is not really responsible for embark/disembark ops. That's more specific to the ground staff. Most crews don't stick with the same aircraft all day - particularly on regional routes - so they will often run off as soon as is necessary to make the next flight (and get the paperwork ready, etc). In those cases, I've noticed that it's usually a customer service rep standing by the main door to guide people out, as the crew is off to whatever is next. The people with the wheel chairs - at least here in the States - are contracted by the carrier and would also be contractually responsible (per the contract) for getting people on/off the aircraft. This last point is what Alex was getting at.

          In this case, I believe that this is likely down to the contracted assistance provider not doing their job. The laws in the UK, though, generally confuse me, and my opinion is largely from the American (and non-lawyer/barrister/whatever-they're-called) perspective.
          Kyle Rodgers
          PMDG Simulations

          Comment


            #6
            My point was that the guy left behind had not reached the aircraft door. He was still in his seat. Alex, are you saying that the customer service rep is responsible for boarding the aircraft and escorting the passenger to the terminal? Perhaps Kyle is inevitably correct in that it is of a varying contractual nature.
            On the BBC programme the passenger was said to be in tears because the flight attendant had said she would get someone to help and then didn't return. The guy was eventually in tears until someone found him and offered to help. All's well that ends well!
            Cheers, Richard

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by RichardMcDonaldWoods View Post
              My point was that the guy left behind had not reached the aircraft door. He was still in his seat. Alex, are you saying that the customer service rep is responsible for boarding the aircraft and escorting the passenger to the terminal? Perhaps Kyle is inevitably correct in that it is of a varying contractual nature.
              On the BBC programme the passenger was said to be in tears because the flight attendant had said she would get someone to help and then didn't return. The guy was eventually in tears until someone found him and offered to help. All's well that ends well!
              I love this. Okay it's the pax job to get off the plane, however flight crews should stay on the plane til everyone is boarded. I agree with kyle on this one also the UKs laws are so confusing.
              Alex Kulak
              PMDG Studier and flyer
              Ramp Agent @PHX

              Comment


                #8
                I’m disabled and when I landed back into Heathrow the other week I had to wait 1.5hrs before I got assistance off the plane the cabin crew had all gone and I had 1 member of the airport staff kept coming back saying they are waiting for someone to help
                Stewart Cumbers

                Comment


                • DDowns
                  DDowns commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I'm sorry to hear this but not surprised. Heathrow is a private corporation and unless they see a financial risk their operations are focused on earning landing fees and gate income.

                #9
                Hi,

                Is the safety of the passengers transferred to the gate agent when the aircraft lays at the gate?
                Who is in charge of evacuation if something goes wrong before the end of the deboarding?

                It seems to me the logic would be that at least the cabin crew does not leave the aircraft until they are sure no passenger is left behind.
                Romain Roux

                Comment


                  #10
                  This actually reminds me of a similar story from a few weeks ago in Canada.

                  https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/24/ameri...ane/index.html
                  Tim Lincoln
                  My YouTube Channel

                  Comment


                    #11
                    FAA requires min crew on board carriers when passengers (including cabin or cockpit jumpseaters) are inside the airplane, regardless if they are embarking/disembarking. It is also independent of the contract of carriage. Private companies will handle wheelchairs or passengers requiring assistant, on all cases flight attendants (min crew based on the number of passengers) are required on board. Not sure how does it work outside the US or non FAA regulated carriers..
                    Rafael Cordoves

                    Comment


                      #12
                      Originally posted by krodgers View Post
                      The laws in the UK, though, generally confuse me, and my opinion is largely from the American (and non-lawyer/barrister/whatever-they're-called) perspective.
                      Article 68 of the Uk's Air Navigation Order 2016 is fairly straightforward really and it says:-

                      "68. The pilot in command of an aircraft is responsible:

                      (a) before every flight, for defining the roles and duties of each crew member;
                      (b) for the operation and safety of the aircraft and for the initiation, continuation, termination or diversion of a flight in the interest of safety; and
                      (c) during aircraft operations, for ensuring the safety of all crew members, passengers and cargo on board."


                      Strictly speaking, this means it is the Captain who is ultimately responsible for the aircraft, passengers and crew from the time the first person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight until the last person disembarks. However, it is not unusual for UK and many other airlines to further define "during aircraft operations" to mean when the Captain boards with the intention of flight or first signs the flight documents until he or she disembarks after formally handing over responsibility for the aircraft and anyone still on board to a senior company official or agent. The important point in all of this is that someone with the appropriate training and authority has to be legally responsible for the safety of the passengers at all times and they should never be left alone on board the aircraft to fend for themselves under any circumstances.
                      Michael Codd

                      Comment


                        #13
                        Yes, I believe that my question has now been answered. It seems sensible that at least the captain remains responsible for the safety of all aboard until handed over to someone at the terminal.
                        If, as Kyle suggests, the crew may rush off before the passengers have completely disembarked, then there exists a security exposure.
                        Cheers, Richard

                        Comment


                          #14
                          Originally posted by RichardMcDonaldWoods View Post
                          If, as Kyle suggests, the crew may rush off before the passengers have completely disembarked, then there exists a security exposure.
                          Assuming no other arrangements are made, then yes, but watch any regional operation - especially here in the States - and you'll see it all over the place. I can guarantee that the LCCs over in Europe do the same, since airplanes on the ground don't make money, so a crew might need to run off before it's all done. Again - all down to some sort of ground manual and/or agreement. There's bound to be some sort of "a crewmember or CSR must be present until X, Y, Z, etc."
                          Kyle Rodgers
                          PMDG Simulations

                          Comment


                            #15
                            To give another perspective outside of the US, at my local airport there is an airport operated service to guide people in wheelchairs from the point of check-in all the way to their seat in the aircraft. They also fetch them from their seat when arriving.

                            To board the aircraft, at least one of the cabin crew is required to be on board and confirm that it is ready for boarding. If the crew hasn't arrived yet, everything stands still until they are there and even the LCCs that operate at the airport have their crews remaining on board until deboarding (including people in wheelchairs) is completed.

                            This seems to me like the wheelchair service not doing their job. As for the crew, either that particular airline doesn't require the crew to be on board the aircraft when passengers are still there (which seems, like Richard says, a security issue to me) or the crew simply didn't abide by the company policy.
                            Niklas Graefe

                            Comment


                              #16
                              Originally posted by threegreen View Post
                              This seems to me like the wheelchair service not doing their job. As for the crew, either that particular airline doesn't require the crew to be on board the aircraft when passengers are still there (which seems, like Richard says, a security issue to me) or the crew simply didn't abide by the company policy.
                              Leaving any passengers alone on board an aircraft is unacceptable customer service, never mind it being a potential security risk these days. But especially for passengers with reduced mobilty it is also considered to be a safety issue, because they could be at risk of serious harm without proper assistance in the unlikely event of a major incident or otherwise survivable accident happening. This is why airlines will usually have special procedures in place for handling passengers with reduced mobility and they will vary depending on the type of assistance required by the individual(s) concerned. For example, the numbers travelling on a particular flight might be restricted, they might need medical clearance before being accepted for travel, they might be required to sit in a certain part of the cabin etc.
                              Michael Codd

                              Comment


                              • threegreen
                                threegreen commented
                                Editing a comment
                                Very right.

                              #17
                              I think that this is not the time or place to talk about abandoned passengers just like in regards to the plane accidents and the thread should be closed.
                              Danny Z.Cebis

                              Comment


                                #18
                                Originally posted by Ausflight View Post
                                I think that this is not the time or place to talk about abandoned passengers just like in regards to the plane accidents and the thread should be closed.
                                I mean, Kyle's already seen and responded to this thread on two separate occasions. If he had an issue with the thread being there, he would have already done something about it by now.
                                Captain Kevin

                                Kevin Yang

                                Comment


                                  #19
                                  Originally posted by Captain Kevin View Post
                                  I mean, Kyle's already seen and responded to this thread on two separate occasions. If he had an issue with the thread being there, he would have already done something about it by now.
                                  That’s just mine opinion.
                                  Danny Z.Cebis

                                  Comment


                                    #20
                                    Nobody got hurt, and we aren't really talking about specific procedures that would somehow compromise safety. Not seeing what the issue is.
                                    Kyle Rodgers
                                    PMDG Simulations

                                    Comment


                                      #21
                                      As already stated, in the US the FAA requires the FA's to remain onboard until the last passenger disembarks. This is an audit point we observe in the RW as part of our required regulatory over site. This applies to boarding as well. At our company the gate agent is required to verify that the min crew is onboard prior to starting the boarding process.
                                      Ryan Syferd
                                      KSEA

                                      Comment


                                        #22
                                        I disagree It’s not about anyone getting hurt or specific procedures I just think that these topics don’t belong in flight sim forums that’s all I think that we be rather talking about NG3 or similar.If it’s alright to talk about everything and anything let’s have a conversation about politics then and see where will that go.It just seem pointless to me to talk about on and on about something that is totally irrelevant to aircraft simming.
                                        Danny Z.Cebis

                                        Comment


                                        • Michael Codd
                                          Michael Codd commented
                                          Editing a comment
                                          Danny, with the greatest respect you seem to be missing the point this area is supposed to be a General Discussion forum for realistic Flight Simulator questions and answers. Richard asked a perfectly valid and relevant question about what happens to passengers in the real world.

                                        #23
                                        Originally posted by Ausflight View Post
                                        I disagree It’s not about anyone getting hurt or specific procedures I just think that these topics don’t belong in flight sim forums that’s all I think that we be rather talking about NG3 or similar.If it’s alright to talk about everything and anything let’s have a conversation about politics then and see where will that go.It just seem pointless to me to talk about on and on about something that is totally irrelevant to aircraft simming.
                                        You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

                                        Where you vaguely crossed a bit of a line, though, is by telling others that this isn't the place, and the topic should be closed.

                                        How we run the forum is up to us. Please leave it to us.



                                        This would be quite an odd place to have discussions if realistic simulations of aircraft were restricted from being discussed in the context of reality.
                                        Kyle Rodgers
                                        PMDG Simulations

                                        Comment


                                          #24
                                          Originally posted by krodgers View Post

                                          You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

                                          Where you vaguely crossed a bit of a line, though, is by telling others that this isn't the place, and the topic should be closed.

                                          How we run the forum is up to us. Please leave it to us.



                                          This would be quite an odd place to have discussions if realistic simulations of aircraft were restricted from being discussed in the context of reality.
                                          I haven’t said or mentioned how you should run the forum yes this is up to the PMDG staff and again just stated my opinion that this i don’t think belong here on the tread for such a long time that’s all.If I cannot state my say here please then close my post.
                                          Danny Z.Cebis

                                          Comment


                                            #25
                                            guys guys guys, its all airline specific. Southwest uses someone different than Delta, Delta uses someone different than American, and you get what im saying. The point is the view the Poster decided to look at it. He found his answer first with Kyle and I going off of what we see here in the United States and the post after ours. dont know how this got out of hand so fast, but when the PMDG staff gets attacked or feels attacked thats when it just becomes unnecessary and if they felt like the post needed to be closed they wouldve closed it. i see both views but as i already stated it all up to the PMDG staff. I personally love to hear how other airlines, and or countries deal with struggling pax and their procedures, so its very very interesting to me, to read other peoples responses towards this topic.

                                            Lets all come in and give a big Sim hug and get back to discussing
                                            Last edited by Swaluver88; 15Jul2019, 14:27.
                                            Alex Kulak
                                            PMDG Studier and flyer
                                            Ramp Agent @PHX

                                            Comment


                                              #26
                                              Originally posted by Ausflight View Post
                                              I disagree It’s not about anyone getting hurt or specific procedures I just think that these topics don’t belong in flight sim forums that’s all I think that we be rather talking about NG3 or similar.If it’s alright to talk about everything and anything let’s have a conversation about politics then and see where will that go.It just seem pointless to me to talk about on and on about something that is totally irrelevant to aircraft simming.
                                              On the contrary -- most people here have an interest in the wider field of aviation and in particular how the models they enjoy in the sim are operated in a real world context.

                                              Obviously if all one is interested in is the literal physical activity of operating the controls then I suppose the 'non-technical' aspects of aircraft operation may seem irrelevant. However for many having a greater understanding of the wider operation of these aircraft is something which adds further depth an interest and invariably in these threads we all learn something new. Personally if taking off and punching on the AP was all I did then I think I'd be pretty bored - it's the 'think like a pilot' more strategic aspect of operating the aircraft that makes things interesting and understanding more of the responsibilities of the crew helps inform that thought process.

                                              For example, in this thread there had been a fruitful discussion about the very prescient question of where the responsibility of the Captain starts and ends. In threads relating to accidents, whilst it is obviously important to avoid excessive speculation we often learn more about the aircraft systems, plus crew procedures and non-technical skills, than we could ever expect to without a catalyst for discussion.
                                              Simon Kelsey

                                              Comment

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