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ILS issue at SOEKARNO HATTA airport by Binersim

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    ILS issue at SOEKARNO HATTA airport by Binersim

    Hi all,

    I bought the SOEKARNO HATTA airport by Binersim last week-end to add a close asian destination to fly to, from Imaginesim WSSS.

    I'm not very happy with my purchase but furthermore, it seems that there is a problem with the ILS unless I missed something.

    I set the aircraft for Autoland, get CMD on the PFD, and Flare armed on the FMA. But at the last minute there is a sudden change on the GS, the plane dives and crashes.

    Please look at the video and let me know what you think.

    Tony Argaud LFPG - P3Dv4.5

    #2
    Have you been able to reproduce this at this airport. I noticed a sudden change in true airspeed, indicated airspeed, and vertical speed all roughly around the same time, but I don't see anything obvious that would result in that happening since your winds and temperature seem consistent. But I do have to ask why you have crash detection on in the first place. I'd just turn it off for the simple fact that some add-on sceneries have some quirks that could result in crashes for no obvious reason, for instance, being on final and crashing into an invisible wall.
    Captain Kevin

    Kevin Yang

    Comment


      #3
      Look at the VS at the momenet the GS goes down: The plane suddenly levels off. That also corresponds to the PAPI lights which go from 4 red to 3 white and 1 red. From here it looks like a gust of headwind. Or you might leave a zone if windshear that you got into before the video starts. So, obviously it's not the glidepath that leaves the continuous approach path, but it's the plane leaving the glidepath into the upper direction.
      Guess it was time to switch off the AP and fly manually, if not even go around. I don't know if the AP could react any faster in reality, but I can hardly imagine.

      Even if the scenery is not the same level as probably where you took off (I have it too), I can't imagine this has been a scenery problem.

      I've flown this approach a few times and didn't notice anything unusual. However I tend to switch off the AP earlier.

      Regards,
      Dominik Jensen

      Comment


        #4
        The plane hit the runway at 1200 fpm - real bad - the plane never even attempted to flare. . APPROACH mode was not selected - so how are you even attempting an autoland???? You need to have APPROACH mode selected for an autoland
        Paul Gugliotta

        Comment


          #5
          Thank you both for your sharp observation and analysis, much appreciated.

          kevin : I have crash detection for 2 reasons: (i) I have very rarely had add-on sceneries quirks that could result in crashes. (ii) when I do a pilotage error that should result in a crash, I like the idea to be aware of the error.

          @Dominik : in fact I had a situation file saved from a previous flight. I landed manually and crashed 2 times. That's why I decided to perform an autoland to see if the autopilot does better than me. Interesting to know that you have the scenery too. What I'll do - since I have a situation file - is to refly the approach with clear weather.
          Tony Argaud LFPG - P3Dv4.5

          Comment


            #6

            Originally posted by Paulyg123 View Post
            The plane hit the runway at 1200 fpm - real bad - the plane never even attempted to flare. . APPROACH mode was not selected - so how are you even attempting an autoland???? You need to have APPROACH mode selected for an autoland
            I do note that the approach light wasn't on, but I never paid much attention to if this was supposed to happen or not. If you look at the FMA, he has VOR/LOC and G/S active. Eventually, FLARE mode is armed, and as he's near the runway, it shows FLARE mode as active. What I'm struggling to figure out is why he was single channel on the approach. Here's an old clip of when I did an autoland in the 737 at a different airport. Same indications as he's getting, but without such a drastic ending. The only thing I don't recall is if I had the single channel indication like he did.

            https://clips.twitch.tv/BombasticBre...ionfruitDuDudu

            Originally posted by Simicro View Post
            I have crash detection for 2 reasons: (i) I have very rarely had add-on sceneries quirks that could result in crashes. (ii) when I do a pilotage error that should result in a crash, I like the idea to be aware of the error.
            I guess that's up to you if you want to leave it on or not. I've been doing this long enough and been on enough forums to see strange things happen, and I would hate to fly a 14-hour flight (obviously not happening in a 737 short of using the BBJ) only to crash into an invisible wall on final.

            Captain Kevin

            Kevin Yang

            Comment


              #7
              I've had the 737 for only one month and of course I'm far from being knowledgeable on all the autopilots modes, etc.

              But as you noticed Kevin, VOR/LOC and G/S are active and FLARE mode is armed, which I believe, testifies that I am OK for an Autoland.

              I indeed activated the VOR/LOC, then after intercepting the LOC, I pressed APP to capture the GS. I don't know why the APP button does not light. Finally I read that to perform an autoland, I need to press CMB B to perform an autoland. A while after that the PFD goes from Single CH to CMD, which as I understand means "dual channel". I read somewhere that on the Newer Collins MCP, "CMD" is displayed, whereas on the Older Honeywell MCP; "AUTOLAND" is displayed.
              Last edited by Simicro; 12Jan2021, 21:32.
              Tony Argaud LFPG - P3Dv4.5

              Comment


                #8
                The only thing I'm not clear on is if you have to manually engage the second autopilot. I don't have any way of checking this since I'm not at home.
                Captain Kevin

                Kevin Yang

                Comment


                • Simicro
                  Simicro commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I cannot explain the why, but yes you have to press CMD B, the second autopilot as I understand, for the autoland to happen with automatic FLARE.

                #9
                I think you will find that this was actually a dual channel approach, i.e. both autopilots selected & engaged. This is evident in that CMD & FLARE are both annunciated, following a successful 'confidence check' which begins at 1500R. At glideslope capture, the APP light extinguishes, which means that the mode cannot be deselected by simply pushing the APP button a second time.
                Haven't yet figured out the reason for the level off & subsequent 'dirty dive' for the runway, will give that some more thought.
                However, I did notice that you were getting dangerously low on fuel, oops!
                Doug Boynton

                Comment


                  #10
                  You know -I just tested an autoland in the 737. I also see APP MODE light goes out somewhere during the approach. And so does the CMB B button. The plane did flare and go to idle - but I got a single cue warning. I had APP mode selected and atthe outer marker, the plane tracked the glideslope perfectly, but CMD B and APP light just goes out - why?
                  Paul Gugliotta

                  Comment


                  • DDowns
                    DDowns commented
                    Editing a comment
                    The APP light goes out because you cannot deselect it. It's a Boeing thing. It has always been that way in NG/NGX/NGXu

                  #11
                  Originally posted by Captain Kevin View Post
                  The only thing I'm not clear on is if you have to manually engage the second autopilot. I don't have any way of checking this since I'm not at home.
                  Yes, you do. But, you can only do this after APP mode has been selected, although it is not necessary to have actually captured the glideslope. Otherwise, you will simply change one autopilot for the other.
                  Doug Boynton

                  Comment


                    #12
                    Originally posted by Skyrider View Post
                    Yes, you do. But, you can only do this after APP mode has been selected, although it is not necessary to have actually captured the glideslope. Otherwise, you will simply change one autopilot for the other.
                    Yeah, I should have clarified after approach mode was selected. I know you can't do it before approach mode is selected.
                    Captain Kevin

                    Kevin Yang

                    Comment


                      #13
                      One think I just discovered, the right and left radio had different ILS frequencies. I believe both radios and Course settings for Left and right side MUST match - correct??
                      Paul Gugliotta

                      Comment


                        #14
                        Hey Doug, thanks for your explanations regarding APP, lights, CMD B. Cool. I understand better what is going on.

                        Back to my crash problem, I've just done another autoland in clear weather and no crash. So I imagine that it has something to do with the weather...
                        Last edited by Simicro; 12Jan2021, 22:03.
                        Tony Argaud LFPG - P3Dv4.5

                        Comment


                          #15
                          Originally posted by Paulyg123 View Post
                          One think I just discovered, the right and left radio had different ILS frequencies. I believe both radios and Course settings for Left and right side MUST match - correct??
                          For a successful dual channel approach & autoland, both NAV boxes must be set to the same (correct) frequency. It is considered best practice for the courses to be correctly set to the final approach course, but this is just for orientation/situational awareness. It will work regardless of what you have set in the course windows, but the picture won't look right if you are using a raw data display.
                          Doug Boynton

                          Comment


                            #16
                            Originally posted by Simicro View Post
                            Hey Doug, thanks for your explanations regarding APP, lights, CMD B. Cool. I understand better what is going on.

                            Back to my crash problem, I've just done another autoland in clear weather and no crash. So I imagine that it has something to do with the weather...
                            I've reviewed your video a few times & can't see any problems with the weather: looks like fair weather, with a pretty steady wind during final approach. You can get interference with the signals from aircraft/vehicles on the ground, but I can't see anything to affect. Maybe just a momentary glitch in the sim?

                            Glad you had better luck on your next approach
                            Doug Boynton

                            Comment


                              #17
                              Originally posted by Simicro View Post
                              Hey Doug, thanks for your explanations regarding APP, lights, CMD B. Cool. I understand better what is going on.

                              Back to my crash problem, I've just done another autoland in clear weather and no crash. So I imagine that it has something to do with the weather...
                              ...which makes absolutely sense to me. Of course, the weather doesn't "look" bad. But if you look closely at the PFD, you can see that shortly before the updraft happens, the speed indicator is getting nervous, which shows some wind changes going on. Apart from that, if no thrust or control input is done to the plane (which isn't the case to that point), the pitch remains the same (actually it gets even slightly nose down during the updraft) while the aircraft is hooked up significally. So it must be an external factor.
                              If the aircraft itself would be the cause of it, it would either have had to put in thrust at that point (which it doesn't), or the nose would have had to pitch up - which it doesn't either. The only reason apart from winds, that would explain a sudden increase in lift without changes in thrust and attitude as seen here, would be an extention of the flaps. And as the flaps have obviously been set correctly before the video even starts, we can also rule out that.

                              The only question concerning the AP for me is, if the AP could actually compensate for such an updraft fast enough, and if it would flare anyway taking a long landing into account, if set correctly.

                              My first reaction would have been switching off the AP, go for a slightly more speed (for the case that the updraft is over and lets you fall down suddenly again) and try to land it within the landing zone in a reasonable pitch. If not, go around. At least the runway there should have some spare meters for a 737 :-)

                              Just try to land at Catalina Island or Sedona with real weather and a good weather engine and you will encounter similar wind effects because of their nature as hilltop airports. No idea what exactly causes such winds at Jakarta, but the tropic zone is also known for some extreme weather conditions that you woudln't see somewhere else.


                              Best regards and happy landings!
                              Dominik Jensen

                              Comment


                                #18
                                Originally posted by Skyrider View Post

                                For a successful dual channel approach & autoland, both NAV boxes must be set to the same (correct) frequency. It is considered best practice for the courses to be correctly set to the final approach course, but this is just for orientation/situational awareness. It will work regardless of what you have set in the course windows, but the picture won't look right if you are using a raw data display.
                                It's not just for situational awareness. You need the correct inbound course selected or the AP cannot capture and track the LOC correctly.

                                Comment


                                • Emi
                                  Emi commented
                                  Editing a comment
                                  Absolutely correct! There's a video on youtube by the way where somebody played around with the courses in a full flight sim and the plane could fly down the ILS until about 30° deviation. Anything further and the AP went haywire.
                                  And that is not to say that it flew well with the courses being 30° offset.

                                #19
                                Originally posted by Paulyg123 View Post
                                You know -I just tested an autoland in the 737. I also see APP MODE light goes out somewhere during the approach. And so does the CMB B button. The plane did flare and go to idle - but I got a single cue warning. I had APP mode selected and atthe outer marker, the plane tracked the glideslope perfectly, but CMD B and APP light just goes out - why?

                                don‘t question me on correct airline/Boeing procedures but technically is so for an autoland:

                                Tune the ILS frequency in both NAV receivers and set the correct loc course. Intercept the loc at a flat angle, ideally 30 degrees or less. Arm (press) approach mode, the light goes on, FMA shows LOC | GS in white. Once LOC and GS are captured it will turn green on the FMA, the APP button light ob the MCP goes off. This means you can not turn this mode off anymore using this button. Turn on the second autopilot, if both sides have captured the ILS correctly, both APs will stay on, otherwise it will swap. Flare will be announced in white on the FMA, CMD shown in the middle.

                                that‘s the whole magic.
                                i7-6700k, GTX 1080TI, 32GB DDR4 RAM @2666MHz, 4k
                                Marc Ehnle

                                Comment


                                  #20
                                  I did a test. If the Nav frequencies are different, it seems like the APP mode Green light goes out at some point. With both NAVS set the same, it works good. Anyone want to replicate this?
                                  Paul Gugliotta

                                  Comment


                                    #21
                                    Originally posted by Kevin Hall View Post

                                    It's not just for situational awareness. You need the correct inbound course selected or the AP cannot capture and track the LOC correctly.
                                    Are we referring to the real world, or FS?

                                    In the RW: The ILS localiser does not transmit radial (course) information in the way that a VOR beacon does. The localiser transmitter transmits two signals, one to the left of the final approach path & one to the right of the final approach path, with a slight overlap of the two signals along the final approach path. The autopilot will figure out where the centre of the overlap is and fly along it: this is what determines the course to be flown, not what is set in the course window.

                                    If you want to track a specific radial/track to/from a VOR, then yes, you must set the required course.

                                    In FS: if this is a requirement, then the sim is not modelling the action correctly.
                                    Last edited by Skyrider; 13Jan2021, 21:25.
                                    Doug Boynton

                                    Comment


                                    • DDowns
                                      DDowns commented
                                      Editing a comment
                                      In fact the RW Boeing AFDS does use the ILS course information in providing guidance for course intercept.

                                    • Kevin Hall
                                      Kevin Hall commented
                                      Editing a comment
                                      Real world. As Dan says it's used for intercept but it's also used for tracking. If the selected course is off the AP will track to left or right of the localiser.

                                    #22
                                    Originally posted by DeeJay View Post

                                    If the aircraft itself would be the cause of it, it would either have had to put in thrust at that point (which it doesn't), or the nose would have had to pitch up - which it doesn't either. The only reason apart from winds, that would explain a sudden increase in lift without changes in thrust and attitude as seen here, would be an extention of the flaps. And as the flaps have obviously been set correctly before the video even starts, we can also rule out that.

                                    The only question concerning the AP for me is, if the AP could actually compensate for such an updraft fast enough, and if it would flare anyway taking a long landing into account, if set correctly.

                                    Best regards and happy landings!
                                    Dominik Jensen
                                    On closer inspection, I think you are correct regarding an updraught, (possibly from those buildings on short final), good spot!

                                    FLARE mode engages at 50R. Assuming that the autopilot did not drop out, I think this would happen anyway, regardless of remaining runway. Would be a judgement call whether to continue or go around...
                                    Last edited by Skyrider; 13Jan2021, 21:39.
                                    Doug Boynton

                                    Comment


                                      #23
                                      Originally posted by Skyrider View Post
                                      ...regarding an updraught, (possibly from those buildings on short final)...
                                      Hey Doug, updragught from buildings are modeled in P3D? If so I was not aware and my jaws would drop off
                                      Tony Argaud LFPG - P3Dv4.5

                                      Comment


                                        #24
                                        Originally posted by Simicro View Post

                                        Hey Doug, updragught from buildings are modeled in P3D? If so I was not aware and my jaws would drop off
                                        I really don't know, but it could explain what you experienced.
                                        Doug Boynton

                                        Comment


                                          #25
                                          I did so little autoland that the last time I did it, my plane didn't want to go off the runway anymore, I understood that the AP was still engaged when it started yelling ... Lol
                                          Cédrice Rive P3D4.5
                                          747, MD11, 737, 777

                                          Comment


                                            #26
                                            If I remember correctly, Aerosoft explained that in the new MSFS, "even objects would influence winds". So I guess in P3d, they don't yet. At least I've never heard of it. Depending on which weather engine you use (for example Active Sky), maybe this one could create such effects (external weather engine) and simulate it inside P3d. I don't know how exactly AS works. But I've had some similar effects at the hilltop airports as mentioned above. And some rare, but nasty windshear, one was at Vancouver in short final and one in Dubrovnik approaching Rwy 29. Actually both of them were predicted by the aircraft: The first one by the PMDG 737 and the second one by the FSL A320.
                                            I was impressed how much better such weather engines are working in comparison to the built in engine in P3d! And of course, how well those 2 aircraft are working!!

                                            Dominik Jensen

                                            Comment

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